 Is banishing drain too high? |
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 Jan 20 2007, 06:32 AM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
I'm thinking it should be limited to the amount of hits the enemy spirit scores. I mean, all it does is get rid of one enemy combatant; a manabolt could do just as well with a higher chance of succeeding with a single blast with much lower, non-variable drain.
Is this one of the rules that wasn't really playtested at all? |
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Jan 20 2007, 06:34 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Dunno. What is the real difference between trying to manabolt a force 20 spirit into oblivion vs trying to banish it?
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Jan 20 2007, 06:36 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Stunbolt > Banishing any day of the week...
I think it should be just a base thing like drain = the force of the spirit You would still have the same test though to reduce tasks owed though. Banishing a spirit should be easier than calling one... |
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Jan 20 2007, 06:37 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Dude, if you can summon a force 20 spirit and survive, I dont want to be on the same planet as you... |
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Jan 20 2007, 06:40 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
I'm not so sure I agree. In a case where the spirit doesnt want to be there? Sure. But if the sprit is not only bound, but is also very much enjoying its tasks. Would it not then fight extra hard to stay there? I'm sure there must be some reason behind banishing being harder than blasting a spirit. Look at spirts with the hidden life ability. You can blast them all you want and they'll just be back tomorrow kinda thing. |
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 Jan 20 2007, 09:45 AM
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#6
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,358 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Maybe not easier to accomplish, but the Drain should be less for sure! In my house rules, I have done this, and halved the Drain for Banishing. It still surely isn't worth it... you must learn an extra skill, whereas Stun Bolt is just another spell, and has other applications. But at least it's usable, if you do. Banishing simply gives no incentive to actually learn it. Bye Thanee |
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Jan 20 2007, 10:51 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Example (using the direct conversion version of the character): Nightmare (Chaos Mage, grade 5 Initiate) summoning a Force 20 Air spirit Magic 10 + Summoning 5 + Power Focus 4 + Totem (Raven) modifier 2 + Edge 6 = 27 dice (average 9 hits) Air spirit 20 = 20 dice (average 6 hits) Drain value 12P Willpower 9 (6 + Force 3 quickened spell) + Logic 6 = 15 dice (average 5 hits) Result: 3 services from a Force 20 Air spirit, 7 boxes for physical drain Conclusion: Force 20 spirits are no longer very difficult to summon by experienced generalist magicians. The only thing preventing the proliferation of uber-spirits in general is the fear of statistically anomalous amounts of physical drain (don't tell my players this :eek: ) As for banishing being easier than summoning, I disagree. The line from the Case of Charles Dexter Ward sums up my position best - "Do not call up what you cannot put down". |
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Jan 20 2007, 11:01 AM
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#8
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Banishing can be useful in that once you've banished away all of a spirit's services you can take control of it. This allows a magician to have any spirit without regard to tradition limitations.
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Jan 20 2007, 12:15 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Why not jsut give banishing 0 drain? Its not like the spirit wont attack yoou while you are banishing it, so you pay with time already. Astral combat does not have drain either . . .
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Jan 20 2007, 12:48 PM
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#10
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,358 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Yeah, great. ;) How often does this come into play, really, and is that worth spending loads of Karma on another skill? Doing away with Banishing Drain completely is also an option, that is worth considering. I didn't want to go that far, but it might be necessary, to make Banishing even remotely appealing. Bye Thanee |
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Jan 20 2007, 01:11 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 2-January 07 From: SOX, German Part Member No.: 10,513 |
Why then don't give conjuring 0 drain too? :? |
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Jan 20 2007, 01:35 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Because conjuring doesnt have a competitive alternative like stun-bolting, which it has to be balanced against. Furthermore you are not automatically attacked while summoning. Furthermore summoning is, even with drain, pretty powerful, banishing is not.
I think the reasons are so obvious I dont really have to state them. |
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 Jan 20 2007, 01:38 PM
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#13
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,358 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
:rotfl: Bye Thanee |
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Jan 20 2007, 02:42 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 2-January 07 From: SOX, German Part Member No.: 10,513 |
Yes, they are. I just want to say, if you've an explanation for
Seems not. But if you reduce the drain of banishing, you're in need of an explanation, why doing nearly the same hasn't nearly the same drain. |
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Jan 20 2007, 02:49 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Game Balancing
or Destroying is easier than building Just choose. If you want banishing to be useless, well thats your choice. Another option would be: Spirits get spell resistance dice equal to their force, because they are spirits and know/used to magic stuff. |
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Jan 20 2007, 03:08 PM
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#16
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,358 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
You quoted the reason yourself...
In a way. It's not an exact opposite, just in the way, that it reduces services instead of adding to them. Of course, no Drain would be kinda the opposite of Drain, or not? :D Bye Thanee |
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Jan 20 2007, 03:20 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Hmm... I like that last option Serbitar. Sourcery is already a touch on the uber side. Allowing it to supercede banishing is just another example.
If magic resistance doesn't sit well, maybe it would be possible to give spirits some low level of counter-spelling, maybe half the spirits force (round up). It could be said this makes summoned spirits a bit uber, but really all it does is make banishing more important. I considered that spirits with counterspelling could be a problem, but were a summoner to request a spirit protect him and his group with counterspelling, it would use up a service. Anyone see any gaping holes in this idea? |
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Jan 20 2007, 03:22 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 2-January 07 From: SOX, German Part Member No.: 10,513 |
That's not a good reason. With this explanation you can do everything, but that's neither elegant nor logical.
No, it's nearly the same.
Giving all Spirits the power "Magical Guard" is definetly the better way. |
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Jan 20 2007, 03:31 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Game balance is everything.
And giving every Spirit the power would be kind of OK, but I dont like it because it would make them even more useful (and take away diversity of spirit types). So I would go for just "force" extra spell defense dice. |
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Jan 20 2007, 03:37 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I'd go for force/2, just to stop them being nigh unstoppable without banishing
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Jan 20 2007, 04:30 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
It takes you months to build a house by yourself. It can take me a few days, tops, to take out the few key points in the house that are load carrying and bring down the house. Simpler example One child uses some blocks to build a big fort looking thing, taking around 10 minutes to make. Another child comes up and gives the block fort a quick kick, taking around 3 seconds. The block fort falls to the ground, destroyed. Building is almost always harder than destroying. |
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Jan 20 2007, 04:37 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
That kick may have carried with it more energy than was expended in the building process. Also that bully might pull a groin muscle, ouch. |
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Jan 20 2007, 05:50 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
@NightmareX
It's been covered serveral times before. You've made to key assumptions that turn the tables drastically on how feasible Summoning a spirit like that is. 1) Average rolls, which you rounded down to boot. 2) Conjurer using Edge and the spirit not. Average is 6.67 hits, and there are better than even odds that the Spirit will roll 7 hits. One in 5 times it'll be 18 boxes of Stun, one in ten it'll be 20 boxes. If they use Edge? Even just the average opposing roll by the spirit means that if your hypothetical conjurer has a Body of 15 they'll be spending Edge to have less than 1% chance of not going from fit as a fiddle to hitting the floor. Good night conjurer, been nice to know ya. Yes you can pull it off. But the risks are pretty damn substantial, and the mage is still dealing with P damage that can't be gotten rid of with Heal. Without Binding, which is truely insane, the conjurer is going to retain that damage longer than the spirit is around. |
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Jan 20 2007, 06:08 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, who cares about Force 20 Spirits. Force 12 Spirits are already the destroyers of worlds.
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Jan 20 2007, 07:06 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 2-January 07 From: SOX, German Part Member No.: 10,513 |
Surprise, Surprise, and not my opinion :grinbig:
Doesn't fit, while after you've wrecked down your building in this manner, it takes month and new materials to build it again. So your destroying is the manabolt, while banishing is to break down the building in some bigger parts (like a prefabricated house), so you can rebuild it easily. So cause you have to be careful not to destroy something, it's even harder than just blow it up. |
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