What should gangers have? Options

[sunnyside]

It has occurred to me that even in the FASA days exactly what kind of gear gangs should be toting and in what quantities has been something they haven't laid a baseline for. Even in sourcebooks supposedly dedicated to the underworld. Sure they'll give stats for a single typical ganger, but they don't give indications of the complete package especially in regards to things like heavy and special weapons.

And the stats do give are somewhat questionable. (You'll pay for hand razors but not an armored jacket, heavy pistol, or melee weapon? No wonder the halloweeners as written in SR4 got wiped out.)

Typically I've just balanced things along the lines of how much cash flow the gang probably has compared to the availability of weapons and the like, and then just winged it with only a handful of extra heavy weapons if any.

Still I'm feeling bugged by it. On one hand real world gangs may have lots of money, but in developed nations they tend to not have anything heavier than an assault rifle, and even in third world countries they seem to only be able to come up with some LMGs and a smattering of RPGs.

However gangs are known to be able to make LOTS of money in the drug trade etc, and I think we all know what the PCs would do if you had them play gang leaders with a six figure budget.

Typically my games haven't centered around gangs to much so it wasn't enough of a factor for me to worry about. But now I'm running a game out of the Redmond Barrens so gang contact is a bigger factor.

[Jack Kain]

When it comes to your typical street gangs cheep.
The hand razors are likly second hand used cyberware.
The gangs may make alot of money off drugs and BLT chips but they also blow most of the profit on there own drugs and BLT chips.

The gangs actually making a profit in the SR world graduate to criminal syndicates.

The gangs also need the contacts to get a hold of this stuff. Many fixers might not want to deal with street trash as there is a high probability of getting screwed if not by them then by a rivial.

Also the gang colors would get them stopped by police alot more. And being sinless Lone Star can simple take their armor and weapons on a whim. So they stick to streetlines and the like that will escape mad scanners.

Finally the go-gangers like the Halloweeners are meant to be stupid. They aren't ment to be very threatening. Some enemies have to be the easy guys so make it the street punks. All the successful street gangs joined criminal syndicates.

This doens't mean a gang might not have heavier weapons and armor hidden away. They just don't want there members causing a ruckess and lossing that stuff.

[Sir_Psycho]

light pistols, decent melee skills and edged/clubs. A gang leader might carry a shotgun, heavy pistol or smg. Gang members go to war with clubs (wood, lead pipes, baseball bats, wrenches, crowbars), knives/shivs (kitchen knives, sharpened screwdrivers, sharpened junk, broken bottles, syringes ( :S ) etc.) and even larger weapons like swords, and occasionally gangs have the odd lowly trained spellcaster who can cast low force heal and fireball/powerbolt, as well as being tough in a punch up.

Generally, a gang will have some nicer stolen vehicles, probably average cars like standard ford Americars (if those exist in SR4) and maybe even some roadmasters, westwinds (''), all not so expensive, and souped up, painted, and covered with makeshift armor and gun placements.

Ware is usually simple things like the occasional cyberlimb, lots of spurs/razors, crazy coloured cybereyes and maybe even boosted reflexes or plastic bone lacing.

[ornot]

There are several grades of gang described in Runner Havens.

I think Sir Psycho's description is good for a street gang, but I'd be inclined to make those larger gangs (which may be associated with a syndicate) rather better equiped. I'd still consider extensive 'ware to be unusual as it costs a lot, and how do you decide which ganger gets it? But then I tend to run a low 'ware gameworld.

[lorechaser]

Remember too that gangs focus more on appearance than utility in a lot of cases.

A big nail studded rusty bat is more valuable than a more dangerous, but not nearly as impressive, combat knife. A Super Warhawk, with it's heft and boom, is more useful than a Predator loaded with Stick n' Shock. Cyberweapons show your street cred. Etc.

Also, present day, a majority of gangers either think they're invincible, or don't care one way or the other. So in a choice between something that gets you street cred (hand razors) or something that keeps you alive longer (Armor jacket), most will pick the street cred.

[cetiah]

The SR3 Companion covered some of this, and I think the SR4 BBB grunts section covers the rest.

According to the SR3 Shadowrun Companion, gang-fights always break down into a numbers game, by convention. It doesn't matter whether this is the way it should work or not, but as far as gangers are concerned, it does.

"No matter hos tuough its members, a small gang will always lose to a larger gang in the long run, and so the gamemaster should aim for a roughly equal balance of forces." -SR3, Runners Companion

The SR4 grunts section outlines a weak Professional Rating 1 ganger and what he would have, and this seems consistant with the "numbers over expertise" viewpoint.

The Companion further goes on to outline these members. For example, the Halloweeners shows 5 lieutenants built as prime runners. Whether you want to build these as SR4 Prime Runners or SR4 Lieutenant Grunts is really a matter of taste, but to keep the whole idea that gangers are anything better than a joke, I'd stick with making these 5 individuals superior prime runners.

The SR4 Companion lists the Halloweeners as having 25-40 members. I would assume most, if not all, of these people are grunts or lieutenant grunts, using the SR4 grunt rules.

These forces make for a healthy little gang fight, no?

The economics of gangs, also from SR3 Companion, describes how gangs don't work on "get paid for the job" system but rather do "jobs" that they don't get paid for, such as turf ways with other gangs. They get a steady income from some kind of illegal activity they do regularly. So over time, a gang's numbers will grow or the grunts in that gang will get better stuff, but I prefer to think that most of this money is going to the 5 people on the top, and there's really nothing anybody can do about it, because they're a bunch of grunts.

In summation, I'd make 3-6 prime runners with fully dished out cyberwear and weapons and stuff. The works. Everything you can, but try to keep with the idea that everything's second-hand or cheap. Then figure they have 10 times that number in grunts.


I should point out that Fanpro has officially said that the SR3 Companion is *not* compatible with SR4 and that they will be releasing a "Runner's Companion" for SR4 that appears to cover some of the same issues. (At least, I know they both cover metahuman variants...)

[Thane36425]

Your typical ganger probably would be carrynig a melee weapon of some kind and a pistol. The gang will probably have something heavier, like shotguns, and a few automatic weapons for the bigger gangs. Then again, there is no reason a small gang couldn't have something like that in their arsenal too. The big guns would be kept at the gang's HQ and would only come out when really needed. It wouldn't do to have it lost when a ganger got caught strolling up the street with it.

The more developed gangs like the Tongs and such, well, they would have more of the heavy weapons, but still would only use them when really necessary.

Another way to look at this is to use the gang archetypes in SR4 or the previous generations. That's what I used to do in terms of getting loot off of them, with some variation of course.

[Dale]

Gang members in 2070 going to war with clubs? Clubs?!?
That is the most absurd thing I've heard on Dumpshock.

[sunnyside]

@cetia: The SR3 companion does indeed have gang info (I'd forgotten about it though). However it doesn't actually give any armament info. Other than Halloweners have a flamethrower.

Even in your otherwise well reasoned comments you avoid it. Or when you say "prime runner" do you mean "assault cannons and missile launchers"

@lorechaser that was a clever rationalization. I may use that logic with them a lot.


If anyone is interested I spent a little while going through dusty tomes and came across an adventure called Elven Fire that deals with Ancients gang(and the rise to power of Green Lucifer, who is lucky he's an elf because this adventure was SR1 and he'd be old now otherwise).

Anyway the ancients (who are Tir backed and large it must be granted) are all equipped with scorpion bikes, UZI III's and Shotguns if they want them. "lieutenant" level members having better SMGs with vents and the like. And the leaders would be superior prime runners save for being light on the cyberware. The text describes an all out war with another gang and they pulled out a goodly number of mages, at least a pair of LAWs, and a sniper rifle.

The opposing gang, the meat junkies, manage to field four heavily armored trucks (not armoured enough to handle a LAW though) and a smattering of bikes. Otherwise they're armed with Uzi III's, Mossburg CMDT shotguns, and AK-97's. No heavy weapons.

While the Meat Junky members were fairly unimpressive, even the Ancients near grunts were more skillfull than a Knight Errant team member.

[ludomastro]

[sunnyside]

I still do high tech and low life, but, yes, somewhere in my GMing I suppose I did lose some of the angst and punk. Ironically the system actually supports the punk more now as the prices on cyberware and hacker grade hardware have plumeted.

Which is something I'll can use. Once you toss in the old mods for 2nd rate cyberware, used cyberware, and increased essense you can probably drop the price on the stuff by a factor of five. That starts putting much of the ware into some gangs price ranges (and offers some fun flavor as it may malfunction).

[cetiah]

[Mistwalker]

What the gangers have could also depend on if they have a patron or not.

Curfrently, my group of players has sponsored a small street gang. Equiped them with UZIs and decent Commlinks. They plan on continuing with better armor, some cyber, etc... Gang has 10 members right now.

Like others, most gangers don't carry their "good" weapons with them at all times. Think of the Hell's Angels. They mostly will have small stuff, usually not even a firearm. But while "working", they will carry more, and if at war, a whole lot more.

Part of the threat of gangs, is their number. If you don't take them all out, the rest will be after you.
As well, they may have connections with organized crime, who may take a dim view of your messing with their entry level people.

[Jaid]

[HappyDaze]

[Mistwalker]

True,
I had AAA-C zones in mind.

I would still think that pistols would be the normal weapon carried in the other zones.

[cetiah]

[Fortune]

I wouldn't bother sticking to arbitrary generation rules when creating NPCs. I just go by what feels right for that particular individual ... or group. There's no reason why one of the Halloweeners can't have a Synaptic Accelerator, or that the Red Hot Nukes don't have access to high-rated explosives. Quite a few gangs make their money from running weapons, some like the Ancients do it on a large scale, and have access to quite a bit of mil-spec stuff.

As I said, I would just go with what feels right.

[cetiah]

[Fortune]

I just don't see how I'm crippling myself by saying that all gangs ... and even all gangers are not the same. It seems to me that you are doing twice the work by creating a basic 'ganger template" and then adjusting it later.

Different styles I guess, but I've never really had to stress myself in order to create appropriate NPCs, even on the fly.

[Wakshaani]

Admitedly, I run a lowerpowered game, BUT, for my, Greg teh Ganger will have a knife or club, because each is easy to conceal and doesn't get them horribly hassled by the police, but, can intimidate civillians, and a leather jacket (Again, they mostly deal with melee weapons, thus, armored clothes = not so handy.)

The core gangers, a step above teh punks, get Streetline Specials (Thus proving that they're a "Soldier"), and armored clotehs to go with their leather jacket.

Lieutenants get a heavier weapon ... a heavy pistol, shotgun, even an AK-97 if fairly well off.

Bosses always pack a heavy pistol and something else to stand out. Tehy usually upgrade to an armroed vest as well.

Now, if the gang is connected, such as being a Syndicate heavy, or a major gang, then things go up a notch. *Everybody* gets armored clothes and a streetline special, for example. These are "Real" gangers that the lower level gangs like teh one I mentioned above want to be someday. This gang's LT's have armored vests and either a heavy pistol or an assault rifle standard.

The bosses get special gear, while the Big Boss is tricked out heavily. Everyone at this stage is packing boosts as well, be it Quickened spells (Triads), cyberware (Yakuza), or serious social contacts (Mobsters).

The generic Ganger, tho, is pretty much like today ... a high school/Jr High kid who's dirt poor, lives at home, and pushes drugs to try and get ahead. He looks forward to fighting, to try and get himself a rep, but sucks at it to be honest. It's all about strength in numbers and intimidation.

[sunnyside]

As an aside gangs like the Nova Rich probably have, well, whatever they want.

[Mistwalker]

[cetiah]

[hyzmarca]

Gangs don't buy their stuff, they steal it. All it takes for The Spikes to to get anti-tank weapons is one poorly-planned arms shipment to Tir Tairngire.