 What should gangers have? |
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 Jan 21 2007, 07:00 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510  |
Again, this still amounts to the same thing. One gang might spend their time selling BTLs, another running protection rackets, another performing services for a patron, or another conducting raids and thefts. All of this is just a way to translate time and manpower into nuyen, services, or gear. While it's interesting to note how a gang makes its money, it doesn't actually alter the type of equipment they can afford once you set a general baseline for how much income those gangs can earn. |
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Jan 21 2007, 09:53 AM
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#27
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Another thing to consider is, how much skill, tenacity and toughness is there in shooting someone?
How much in beating them nearly to death with a baseball bat? Gangers want to be thought of as tough, any slitch can pull a trigger, how many can beat you so bad your own mother couldn't recognize you using astral sight, a dna test and that birthmark only she knows about? |
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Jan 21 2007, 12:33 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
Even if a gang manages to pick up a shipment of AK-97's, I imagine they wouldn't be too shit hot at using them. I imagine them doing silly things like firing from the hip, and firing in wild burstfire.
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Jan 21 2007, 12:39 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
Actually, gangs *do* buy their stuff, lots from pawn shops or from higher-ups who know that Jimmy the Ganger wants to geta gun and make himself a name. So, they sell him an overpriced piece of junk (A fool and his money) and send him on his way. Just another punk with a pistol in his pocket, no big deal. When they start selling *real* weapons, tho, the police like to find out where those came from and lil' Jimmy isn't exactly the bravest kid when he's in lockdown and being interrogated. He cracks easy and then your gunshopw's gone. Better to save the good stuff for the professional gangs, the bigger ones that know ho wto stay quiet. |
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Jan 21 2007, 09:47 PM
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#30
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Lone Star is unlikely to arrest Jimmy The Ganger because that would require going onto gang turf and potentially igniting a full-scale war. Gangs in Shadowrun are like the Gangs in The Warriors. They all have wacky themes and if they had a common enemy to rally against (such as the police) when they would be able to conquer Seattle, routh both Lone Star and the Metroplex guard, depose the government, and turn the whole metroplex into a gang-state. If they had a common enemy to rally against.
As it is they are too busy fighting each other and doing their petty criminal stuff, like murdering Insect Spirits (for the Spiders) and executing elves (for the Spikes), and setting cops on fire (for the Halloweeners). But, if the police violated one gang's turf it would set a bad precedent and might just inspire some entrepreneurial gang leader to become the next Alexander the Great. |
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Jan 21 2007, 10:28 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 11-September 04 From: French Runner Member No.: 6,652 |
I'd rather agree with the original poster...
I'm not a big fan of the "madmax" vision of street gangs...that is IMHO a small fraction of the gangs, mostly the go-gangs which have a sort of tribal organization, heavily steeped into rituals and stuff... As Sunnyside put it, gangs that deal drugs (BTL or good'old chemical crap) get their hands on lots of money. Which means they get access to a lot of hardware. Nevertheless, it's true that every gangbanger will not pull out an Ares Alpha at every street corner, prefering to keep to the non-automatic weapons (handguns) simply because it's easily concealed and because it's not the same sentence if you get caught by the cops... As for cyberware...well things didn't use to be that much of a problem back in SR3 since the price of implants and surgery limited this kind of gear to the upper echelons... Now, implant prices have dropped so much that every street dealer will quickly make enough money to get wired (think about the kind of cars these guys buy in real world and compare the price of a car in SR4 with wired reflexes 1...) So if you want to be consistent with the overall picture, gangers should definitely be cybered... (in fact this problem of cyberware costs is the thing that really bugs me in SR4...way too low compared with some lowtech stuff like cars for exemple , or even to the average income of a Middle Class sarariman, which strangely enough hasn't changed...I understand the game mechanics involved to balance the game and allow players to get a sense of possible progression instead of having to get tons of nuyens to even consider a simple upgrade as it was in SR3...but it still remains a problem for me...) |
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Jan 21 2007, 11:20 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i wouldn't worry too much about the cheap cyber. most of the real good stuff is bioware anyways, and that's not nearly so cheap.
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Jan 22 2007, 02:36 AM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
I'm hoping taht we'll get some stats on secondhand cyber and some cheaper, low availability stuff for thrillgangers.
Non-retractable handrazors, chem-injector implants, and so on. Some freaky, rictis-grinning ganger with tubes flowing out of his arms and into his pack while he talks about revving up on Jazz or Novecoke or whatever. that's creepy. It's a *way* more lowtech version of Wired Reflexes, but easy to cobble together, so will be cheap and low availability, but with a few, erm. ... Side-effects. |
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Jan 22 2007, 02:49 AM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
For your Z zones they make some sense. Some of them may be less 'gangs' and more neighborhood militias if you're feeling complimentary. |
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Jan 22 2007, 04:17 AM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Well, there's two concerns here : What you can get awat with, and what you can afford/find. In a Z zone you can get away with using assault rifle, sure. But most gang turfed in a Z zone are lowlife whose number one concern would be finding enough food not to go hungry. What kind of economy is there in those place? It's worse than third world country. Meanwhile, a gang turfed in Downtown can't run around with big guns most of the time... But they can afford it because they have likely cornered a far more lucrative racket than most of the poor schmucks who claim glow city as a turf. --- I don't think we need to baseline what a standard gang should have. Just figure how threatening these guy can be based on the quality of the rackets they have cornered and the support they have mustered from the other underworld actors. Scroungers living in rat city : Clubs and knives but the odd . Push drugs/BTL for the Mafia in Auburn : Various pistols. Some access to combat enhancing drugs. Push drugs/BTL for the Yakuza in Downtonw : Packing pistols, but access to automatics. Some minimal cyber and general access to combat enhacing drugs. Minimal magical support. Control a smuggling route and control their own distribution channel for their product in Tacoma : Minimal to serious cyber, combat enhancing drugs, magical support, automatics, and if their "product" happens to include heavey weapon or explosive then obviously they'd have a lot of that too. And these are just basics. You just turf out in glow city and try to survive : Clubs You turf in Glow city and outsource safehouse to various third party : Pistols, armor, some combat drugs... You turf out in Glow city and control weapon cache and other products on behalf of the Yakuza (a criminal warehouse, basically). : The full Monty. Just case by case, basically. |
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Jan 22 2007, 01:14 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,413 |
Gangs have another limit, and thats organized crime.
Gangs may deal in drugs and weapons, but they tend to go through the big fish to do it. ( And the big fish don't like competition.) |
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Jan 22 2007, 01:18 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Actually, I had always assumed that gangs were the pawns of the organized crime world, and a valuable asset, when controlled. Kind of what shadowrunners tend to be to corps, gangs tend to be to mob bosses. But that's just me and my campaign...
For starters, I can see them having to pay off a big chunk of what they've earned to the organized crime folks, maybe in subtle ways that they don't even know of. I also see that as where they get most of their high-tech gear and where they go for protection from the corps when they need it. |
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Jan 22 2007, 07:50 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,507 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Oh. It seems so obvious but it just occured to me.
Gangs should have drugs. And those give them stat bonuses. Though to be fair maybe they should only have those bonuses when partying or going on the warpath. |
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Jan 22 2007, 08:51 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Considering the low cost and easy to hit Availability, gangers should have no problem getting firearms up to AK-97s (assault rifle or SMG/carbine model). Likewise, many forms of armor are very cheap and easy to find. Considering that the Armor Jacket is the "most popular armor solution on the streets," don't be surprised to find gangers with pretty good armor.
Now that I look at it, with the exception of a few of the more exotic items, there is no reason that typical gangers should be any less equipped than your typical shadowrunners. This helps to explain why runners with such equipment don't attract too much attention. |
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Jan 22 2007, 09:28 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 29-March 03 From: Tir Tarngiere Member No.: 4,353 |
I don't have SR3 Companion or Prime Runners, but I like this bit here, and I'm going to use this in my own campaigns. Big guns like assault rifles and LMGs show up in the Barrens. As you work more towards the "civilized" parts of the city you start seeing less assault rifles in the hands of the gangs, and more SMGs and pistols. Not necessarily because they don't have access to them, but because police patrols are more common, and you're more likely to get caught if you're driving around with a AK-94 where you can get at it. However, they may compensate for this by using specialty ammunition (armor piercing rounds, that sort of thing). How I handle drug use (and what drugs are sold by) gangers is an entirely different matter, which probably belongs in another thread. |
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Jan 22 2007, 09:36 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
If I have certain NPCs that are addicted to a given drug, I just roll the addiction test prior to the scene. If they make it, they're clean and will have to jack-up during the scene if they want, otherwise they are assumed to be halfway through their jacked-up time period. Groups get one roll for the whole dang group.
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Jan 23 2007, 05:25 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Not sure if this was adressed allready, and I appologize if it was. It's just one thing that caught my eye and I still havent quite read all of the thread yet. IT's not absurd at all. Gunfire draws unwanted attention to a big fight. Gunfire is noisy and can carry a good distance. A baseball bat and a bit of yelling on the other hand generally wont carry as far. A properly applied baseball bat to the back of the head wil only produce a nice THUNK and if swung hard enough will cave in a guy's head. Killing him just as well as if you'd shot him. Not only that but you don thave the reload a baseball bat, or buy highly illegal things like silencers to help keep it quiet. By it's very nature the use of a baseball bat is as quiet, if not more so than your average silenced pistol from what I understand. While it's far easier to use a gun in many situations there's a good reason why one doenst use them at times. |
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Jan 23 2007, 05:33 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I think the operative word being objected to in this case was 'war'. As in one gang deciding to take out another gang, and so everyone grabs a baseball bat. Kind of like a scene from Westside Story, isn't it?
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Jan 23 2007, 09:56 AM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,311 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 2,062 |
I've decided that not enough gangs that operate as a survival mechanism in a place that has no regular power, water, police presence or incoming stream of supplies use guns that they made themselves.
Street Sweeper: Because very fast rocks can hurt just as much as very fast pieces of metal, and are more likely to give you an infection. |
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Jan 23 2007, 12:14 PM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 29-October 06 From: Grenoble, France Member No.: 9,730 |
I'm not sure about how realistic it is, but in a TV series such as The Shield, and others beside (usually US cops series), the gangers all have pistols (easy to conceal, especially in those baggy clothes of theirs), or machine-pistols (the famed Tek-9 or whatever), or sometimes sawed-off shotguns (not necessarily in everydaylife, but at least if they intend to beat/shoot the hell out of another gang.
I'd rather see a gang war as drive-by shootings and petrol-bombing an HQ, rather than an old-fashioned, medieval banging with clubs and chop-chops. Especially in gang-controlled territory (Redmond, Pullayup…), where you don't give a fvck about gunfire noise, since the cops won't come anyway. |
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Jan 24 2007, 04:29 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well it all depends on where the 'war' is taking place. In the barrens? Almost definately gunfire galore, but expect a few melee weapons to pop in at odd times. Overall though I think Ben's idea of it is abit more like how it would happen. Just look at current day gangwar. Drive by shootings, bombings, the odd beating/stabbing to death. You'll very rarely have a flat out no holds bar fight between two entire gangs. ANd if you do, well in that case you probably are abit more likely to see it boil down to melee weapons. Sort of a tough man thing. That doesnt of course ruleout ambushes where one side says they'll meet up for a rumble, and then instead use guns and grenades etc. Overall though given the actual numbers in some gangs, and the connections the larger gangs (And some smaller ones as well) have with shadow runners. Your likely to really see alot of hit and run deals. Unless the gang is really big your not likely to see the whole gang move all at once. That or their not really a gang so much as one of the few gangs otu there that actually -is- a 'neibourhood watch'. There are a few listed, and no doubt they peddle in drugs and other illicit items to a degree. But they dont shake down folk for money. ANd their more likely to deal in illegal weapons and other things than actual BTLs and narcotics. |
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Jan 24 2007, 05:59 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 340 Joined: 18-September 06 From: Chicago (CZ) Member No.: 9,422 |
Ganger eqipment
Cash, Gun/knife (both could be conceled easily), gang parafenelia (tats and gang colors) & transportation. Travel in groups of 4 to 12 usually wearing baggy clothes all year around. |
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