 Contact Question |
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 Jan 21 2007, 05:30 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297  |
Ok, my Search-Fu is weak today. I know that I have seen some threads in the past concerning alternate methods for paying for contacts. Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction?
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Jan 21 2007, 05:37 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you mean at chargen?
i've heard a few... 1) you get free contact BP equal to charisma * X (usually 2 or 3) 2) loyalty runs from 0-5, not 1-6. loyalty 0 is free (i fully approve this... loyalty 1 is basically the relationship between you and a grocery store cashier, generally speaking. of course, connection 1 is about what that grocery cashier has too, interestingly enough) 3) contact costs, instead of being loyalty + connection, are loyalty * connection (note: in the event you use 0 loyalty method mentioned earlier, i recommend you don't use this variant, or maybe count 0 as 0.5 for this purpose) that's about all i can remember offhand. hopefully i've interpreted your question right ;) |
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Jan 21 2007, 05:45 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
Yep, you understood my question. 1) I have used this on a PBP game and love this one. 2) Interesting ... what would Loyalty 0 get you? A friend of a friend? 3) I actually like how this starts; however, you get some wierd effects such as: A) By RAW, a 2/2 is 4 and so is a 1/3. By this variant, a 2/2 is 4 and a 1/3 is 3. B) The high end IMHO is too high. Anything else out there? |
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Jan 21 2007, 06:02 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Yeah, I play with a variation of these variations. During chargen, players get a number of Relationship Points (RP) equal to their Charisma * 3. A contact is free, but starts at 0/0 which is useless. The final cost is modified as follows: +1 RP per point of Connection rating. +1 RP per point of Loyalty rating. -1 RP if contact is a family member. -1 RP if contact is Frakked Off! A Frakked Off! contact is generally one that you owe favors or money to. They have an effective Loyalty of -4 at the start of the game until you perform a service to even the score or pay 5,000 nuyen per Connection Rating. This can only be done after the game starts, and once done, the Loyalty rating will revert to its normal score. Consult with the other players in your group before acquiring a Frakked Off! contact. Relationship Points (RP) can also be spent on Language Skills, in the same manner as Knowledge Skill Points (KP). Additional Relationship Points (RP) cost 2 BP each. All Relationship Points (RP) not spent at character generation are lost when play begins. Players cannot have a Loyalty score higher than 5 at character generation, unless the contact is family. I generally encourage my players to keep the Loyalty scores of Johnson and Fixer types below 4, because they earn +1 Loyalty every time they do a job for that contact, to a maximum of 6. I considered making some qualities that adjust the costs and use of Relationship Points so that generating a Face has some good qualities to it like hackers and magicians and such, but I decided against it. I considered randomly determining the languages spoken by various contacts, but, again, decided against it. I also considered giving the players an option to spend Relationship Points (RP) to increase their Street Cred, but decided against it. I ask my players to designate their contacts as either Resource or Information. This doesn't really serve a purpose, other than it lets me know how they see their contacts. I don't really restrict their use unless the Connections Rating is very low. But a Doctor (information) and a Doctor (resource) contact each kind of imply their own relationships, especially for family members. Generally speaking, it's a fairly straightforward process to add contacts after play. It requires an Etiquette + Charisma test against a threshold equal to the desired Connection rating. The Loyalty begins at 0 and can only be increased by doing significant favors for that contact (whether asked for or not). One player was confronted with a small street gang once, and asked me if he could use Leadership + Charisma to get all 12 of them as contacts. On the fly, I allowed it, have it a threshold of 3, and treated the whole gang as a Connection 3/Loyalty 0 contact. As yet, it's been unused because we haven't played since then. But since then I've been toying with the idea of adding organizations as potential contacts such as businesses, corporations, policlubs, gangs, matrix dumpshock forums, etc. |
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Jan 21 2007, 06:10 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
@ cetiah
Interesting. Do you require them to buy all contacts with RP? OR can they still follow the standard BP cost? |
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Jan 21 2007, 06:16 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
At loyalty zero, you get someone willing to do business with you, as long as you pay on time and don't make a nuisance out of yourself. As this is assumed to be the default disposition of anyone in a cyberpunk world, paying for it seems odd. “Sir, I would like to purchase one of your fine bowls of noodles.” Is not replied to with “Screw you buddy, I don’t know you, so I’m not going to sell you the hot beef bowl.” |
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Jan 21 2007, 06:16 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
No, these replace the standard BP costs. Additional RP costs 2 BP each. The purpose of this RP system was to decrease the cost of getting a few contacts, allow flexibility in building a contact network, but make it impossible for any single player to dominate the contact network... all players have a more or less equal amount of contacts, except those that traded contacts for languages (which has its own social advantages). |
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Jan 21 2007, 06:20 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Actually this is more like: Contact: "Would you like paper or plastic?" Player: "What can you tell me about Mad Scythe?" Contact: "Huh?" Player: "Mad Scythe. C'mon, hun', spill it. They're on my tail. They'll be here any minute!" Contact: "Oh, dear." Player: "Mad Scythe? Look, I know he shops here. You know who he is. Everyone knows who he is. Can you tell me what he buys? How he pays? When he was here last? Anything that can help me out?" Contact: "Umm... Would you like paper or plastic?" |
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Jan 21 2007, 07:54 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I use connection rating to reflect how useful the contact is - not necessarily how connected he is. This means that a street doc might be at con 2 but one that can deal with deltaware is a 5. This acts as a form of availability in my games. You can't have anything over a certain avail without having a contact that explains that. You also need a SIN decker to keep up with your false IDs. Your false IDs will degrade if they are not kept up because they have no activity. The only type that you would not worry so much about keeping fresh is a bug out ID. Your IDs have an upkeep cost and you can't have an ID with a rating higher then your SIN decker. All SIN deckers are syndicate controlled.
Loyalty does not go up hardly ever. If you are a good customer then you will get a 1 maybe a 2. Nothing you buy from them will really change this. You have to do things for them above and beyond the call. You can't start with a contact with a loyalty higher then 3 or your charisma whichever is lower. If you save their life then it will go up. Some people are naturally nice and have a loyalty bonus. Others are assholes and backstabbers and have a loyalty cap. You don't know this ahead of time. Getting a favor costs karma. That's the system I use for contacts. |
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Jan 21 2007, 11:08 AM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I believe that the default Loyalty 1 has the advantages that A) you know how to find the contact (where he/she operates and/or phone numbers, etc.) B) the contact doesn't like you or even really trust you but you have established your ID with them and can cut through a lot of the BS that you may otherwise get when dealing with shady characters (most important for contacts operating in quasi-legal or illegal ways). IMO, these few perk are certainly worth 1 BP. |
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Jan 21 2007, 11:33 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492 |
It seems to me that Loyalty 0 would represent that you (the runner) has basic knowledge of the contacts existence. You havn't really met them, nor they you, but at least you know where to look to find them.
RunnerA: So, do you know where we can find some ADPS for this job? RunnerB: Yeah, I think so, I heard that JoeBrown has that sort of stuff, and he usually hangs out round Central Station. RunnerA: So you havn't actually met the guy? RunnerB: Uh.. no... |
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Jan 21 2007, 04:12 PM
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#12
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well personally I give my Players 10 BP that can only be used for Contacts and have to go towards at least 2-3 different contacts. (It various from game to game, but I'm starting to lean towards 3 contacts in order to hold down the point value of what are mostly meant to be 'flavor' contacts.)
I also tend to give at least 1 or 2 'Campaign' Contacts free, usually a Fixer or Johnson. Oh, and one that I stole from this board is the idea that you don't have to buy a Contact at his/her full Connection Rating, although the rules for getting ahold of him/her use the 'Real' Rating. |
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Jan 21 2007, 05:09 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
SR4 has this to say on a loyalty 1 contact:
in the 0-5 loyalty system, you simply move each loyalty rating down 1 notch. this makes sense, because no preferential treatment is exactly what you should expect from anyone. paying for loyalty 1 under the basic system is just plain ridiculous.
and since you're paying for their connection rating, you don't get any free contacts. as far as the multiplying system making lower rating contacts cheaper and higher rating contacts more expensive, that's the whole point. getting lofwyr as your best buddy should cost more than 12 BP, a connection 1, loyalty 1 contact (which is basically a normal person who treats you no differently than anyone else) should cost less than 2 BP. basically, use this system if you want to encourage players to pick up high loyalty but low connection contacts, or vice versa. |
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Jan 21 2007, 05:21 PM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Loyalty 1 means 1 more dice when making tests. That's what you pay for.
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Jan 22 2007, 12:55 AM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Did you read my post? Rating 1 means that they will deal with you - that is not an automatic thing among many of the shadier contacts. Without rating 1, they may not deal with you at all. Approaching the Mafia Consigliari without at least Loyalty 1 means he may not want to reveal that he's in the Mafia at all... and if you push the issue he may get nasty. |
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Jan 22 2007, 02:36 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
and you don't get any free connections with the other version. you pay for their connection, which is available to you, but you don't pay for their loyalty, because they don't have any loyalty towards you. the consigliari still has a connection cost (at least connection 2 or 3, since connection 1 is basically some random joe... i would guess 3, personally, maybe more), but since he doesn't feel any loyalty towards you whatsoever, and will not give you any form of preferential treatment whatsoever, you don't pay for preferential treatment. it isn't worth any BP to have been introduced to them, because you can get that with minimal, if any, roleplaying. |
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Jan 22 2007, 02:47 AM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I guess I would counter that - using the normal 1-6 benchmarks - Loyalty of less than 1 is for someone that is distrustful and uncooperative. You will get less than 'non-preferential treatment' - they'd rather screw you over than deal fairly.
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Jan 22 2007, 03:02 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
there is no loyalty 0 in the normal scale. either they are a contact and they have loyalty 1+ or they are not a contact at all. if they hate you and will screw you over every chance they get, then they are simply not a contact. as i said, the way the variant i was describing works is very straightforward: you move all the loyalty ratings down by 1 point, thus generating 0-5. if you wish to propose a variant for adding on ratings less than 1 to the original method, then that's fine too. but basically, the idea of the 0-5 scale would be mechanically preserved if you were to just declare that the first point of loyalty is free. |
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Jan 22 2007, 04:20 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I really don't see a point in making Loyalty 'benchmarks' other than looking at the mechanics, which show the situation in kind of obvious way.
A loyalty 1 gets you a +1 bonus to Negotiation checks and such with that contact, so he's obviously more likely to help you than some guy off the street. Loyalty 0 gives you no preferential treatment. Loyalty -1 would be a contact that has the appropriate connections, but convincing him to help you out will take some work. |
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Jan 22 2007, 06:06 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
That's my point. If you don't assign at least 1 point, you don't have a Contact. You have a base surcharge of 1 point just to get Loyalty to the point where the contact can say" yeah, I'll work with him". Without that they may work with you in their normal capacity (as a bartender, etc.) but not for the uses a typical shadowrunner might want (that bartended would get you a drink but isn't going to pass on any usefuyl information to you or for you). I'm trying to stick with the RAW for this discussion - flipping back and forth between RAW and house rules in the same discussion just muddies the waters too much. But...
This doesn't do anything except give you 1 less die when working with the contact and saving you 1 BP per contact. What's the point? Is it just to slide the fluff descriptors to a more comfortable setting? |
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Jan 22 2007, 06:59 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
A) Yes. I think that's fair. A 1/3 is less useful than a 2/2, generally. B) I disagree. A 6/6 contact is a lifelong friend that is connected to something huge. 12 bp for that? You can get a dragon that owes you a favor for 12 bp? |
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Jan 23 2007, 04:35 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
I understand about Ghostwalker owing you one; however, I'm not sure that 36 BP is the right number either. I have been tinkering with various multiplyers and formulas but haven't come up with anything that I like better. Thank you for the feedback. |
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