 FanPro 2006 Year In Review |
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 Jan 27 2007, 08:58 AM
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#101
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
For the umpteenth time. There are reasons why it was illogical and counterproductive to introduce Unwired at this point in the release schedule. Not only didn't FanPro have any intention of releasing what by necessity would have been an "incomplete" book, but fans would have torn us apart if we had. Those reasons will be obvious when you read Emergence. |
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Jan 27 2007, 12:01 PM
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#102
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, then I must say that these reasons were ill chosen. Its not like Emergence (and the reasons therein) are a god given necessity.
On other words: If the reasoning is: "well, we couldnt release Unwired first, because of Emergence.", why was Emergence designed to be so important in the first place? |
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Jan 27 2007, 12:35 PM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Correct me if I'm wrong, Serbitar, but weren't you bemoaning the lack of metaplot in another thread? Wait and see, people. Wait and see. You'd think that somefolks here expect FanPro to publish every sourcebook simultaneously with the lauch of the Core SR4 book. It does not work that way. |
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Jan 27 2007, 12:46 PM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
No, definitley not. And I did not expect Fanpro to release every supplemental rule book simultaneously. Im merely criticizing the decision to release Unwired last, instead of first. I have reasons for it that I can explain and put against reasons of others and I am posting them. Whats wrong with this? |
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Jan 27 2007, 01:49 PM
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#105
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
They always will, no matter what you do. :P |
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Jan 27 2007, 03:32 PM
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#106
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Pretty much. Works like that in just about every creative field. |
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Jan 27 2007, 07:05 PM
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#107
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
All true. Nonetheless, it was the plan to develop technomancers further, give some social and setting context by making them the focus of the first SR4 event/campaign book. When the concept of Emergence was developed it quickly became apparent that we would be introducing a surprise or two that will change the way people in the Sixth World treat the Matrix. Releasing Unwired ahead of Emergence would have ruined some of the surprises we had planned as it's was a given that that any developments or twists we had for technomancers and the rest of the Matrix in Emergence would need to be covered in the Matrix rulebook. Releasing Unwired without including Emergence-relevant material would have been akin to leaving out a major chapter in the corebook and force us to present Matrix rules material somewhere else later - something FanPro has been avoiding, we're trying to keep the number of rulebooks needed to a minimum.
Conveniently, Unwired was slotted to be the last of the core rulebooks, following the plotbook, so no changes to the production schedule were needed. |
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Jan 27 2007, 07:22 PM
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#108
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The point isn't so much the order fluff -> crunch to avoid spoilers...
It's just that the most important part of the rules to really understand and play SR4 comes... last. This is especially unfortunate if a plot book 'that will change the way people in the Sixth World treat the Matrix' is released and people are left to wait until they actually have the rules to really play it. |
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Jan 27 2007, 09:13 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
ytjis is along the lines of my complaint earlier about not getting enough books out.
as was pointed out to me, in the past fanpro/fasa only put out about 5 books a year, but with the exception tf the rigger book, which heralded the end of an edition usually, the first books put oput were the core books which made the game more playable than the fluff stuff. I'm not arguing that unwired should have come before emergence, just that there needs to be more focus on getting the core books out (combat, cyber/bio/medical, and matrix,) so that we can start having more complete rules to guide us. Obviously, we'll wind up discarding whatever w e feel like and houseruling stuff and bitching upa a storm about how lousy everything is, but a relatively somplete core set of rules would be helpful. |
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Jan 27 2007, 09:29 PM
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#110
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
This is not entirely true. While the wireless Matrix and its impact on daily life plays a fundamental role in Emergence, it will be fully playable using the core Matrix rules (and the relevant FAQ clarifications).
This is not entirely correct analysis either. Chronologically FASA always released an adventure, a location/fluff book, a screen + booklet, and sometimes a campaign interspersed with the corebooks. As has also been stated, FASA is not FanPro. At the time of SR3's release FASA had a full-time line developer, on-staff assistant developers, editors, writers, layout artists and an art director. FASA has an SR line developer, two part-time assistant developers, all-round good guy Adam and a bunch of freelance editors, layout artists, writers and artists all of which have their own schedules, priorities and goals. Matching FASA's production schedule is an accomplishment. All that said, Emergence is on final approach, both Arsenal and Augmentation are well advanced in the production pipeline, as is Corp Enclaves. Unwired should be next up. |
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Jan 27 2007, 09:50 PM
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#111
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
With all due to respect, but even with the FAQ, which pretty much has the value of 'official houserules'... not really. Part of this is because the newly introduced fluff elements will have crunch (which would spoil in the wrong order...). But mostly, even the FAQ does not even really explain what happens if you do SOPs as to send an Agent off to search something in the Matrix. In SR3, it was quite easy, as the only thing the Smartframe/Agent depended on was their ratings - one roll, and they were done. In SR4, given the nature of extended tests, this require multiple rolls... but as the agent moves through the nodes the matrix consists of, his ratings would be capped and thus reduced by the hardware of those nodes. Same goes for encryption. The FAQ acknowledges that it is weak, suggests a fix that completly changes the flow of the game and promises more options in... Unwired. This is not about changing the release order. It is just about pointing out that there indeed is a problem, which wouldn't have been there if Emergence and Unwired would be released at the same time. |
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Jan 27 2007, 10:04 PM
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#112
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
I have a favorite pair of juxtaposed quotes that I like to pull out at times like these: "Man is a political animal." "The one truth in politics is that, no matter what the action, many voices will rise up in protest against it." |
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Jan 27 2007, 10:48 PM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Let's not forget, fourth edition was released at GenCon in August, 2005... and in limited numbers then. It didn't see widespread availability until Q1 2006, so at this point the game is barely over a year old.
I know it can be hard to remember, but there was a lag time between the last edition's core rulebook and its main supplements. SR3 did not "suck" during those long dark months between the BBB and Matrix... Besides, if they had released Emergence and Unwired before Street Magic then they really would have been ignoring a fundamental part of Shadowrun as a game (the tagline is: "Where Magic Meets Machine!"), and as a fictional universe. Magic is what makes the Sixth World what it is, otherwise we'd all be playing Cyberpunk 2020. The impact of the Awakening is much more fundamental to the gameworld than advaned computer networking. It is also a much more complex set of rules and ideas. |
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Jan 28 2007, 12:01 AM
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#114
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I suspect that the level of displeasure expressed for the current order is minor compared to the absolute Sh!tstorm™ that would have hit if Street Magic was placed even midway through the release schedule. Not from me, and not saying it is necessarily the 'correct' opinion. But for the reason that your view Thain has solid merrit and is quite common. Even the Gun Pr0n crowd is pretty strong in numbers, and let's face it people getting shot/hacked/blown up turns out to be pretty common in most SR games. If Emergence provides more insight into the new Matrix in general I think the current order will turn out to be a good compromise. |
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Jan 28 2007, 12:53 AM
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#115
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
By Q1 2006, the entire first printing was sold out and so was a portion of the second printing. |
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Jan 28 2007, 12:55 AM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, as I am of the opinion that the core matrix rules are only playable by massive GM handwaving, I doubt that. My main problem with the SR4 setting and matrix rules is the following: The concept and ideas are revolutionary, well thought through and extremely interesting. The implementation is not. The need for Unwired is there. I personally know of 4 different matrix rulesets that cover from 4 to 40 or more DinA4 pages (mine, Signal Spirits on Fanpro.de, Garrowwolfs and cetiahs) , about a dozen or so different views and interpretations (hobgoblins, Frank Trollmans, Rotbarts . . .) and matrix rules are THE most discussed topic both here on DSF and on Fanpro.de. All core book mechanics are working perfectly out of the box, except matrix, and still it is the last book to be released. I know that it is not really constructive criticism, as the development plan is already set and there is nothing to change and Unwired will not hit stores before 2008. But I really think that could have been avoided (actually Ive been pleading this case for some year now). Im am just crying over so much potential lying idle. |
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Jan 28 2007, 01:05 AM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Actually, Serbitar, I find the Matrix rules work perfectly straight out of the book. My group and I have experimented with one or two alternate systems, including yours, and found all of them flawed, needlessly complex or too similar to prior editions.
The implementation of the Matrix in SR4 is wonderful, you just need to drop the luggage of SR1, 2 and 3. Bear in mind, I say this as having to date only played one SR4 character: a technomancer built using only the BBB who has amassed north of 60 karma in bimonthly games, and is the only hacker in a party of eight. |
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Jan 28 2007, 01:17 AM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
[sarcasm]Serbiter, stop thinking people are going to produce stuff for you just because you and others offer them money for it. Consumers always seem to think that the economy is demand-driven for some stupid reason; like that makes sense! The economy is obviously driven by producers, and they'll sell you what they goddamn want to sell you and you'll shut up and buy it. [/sarcasm] ;) |
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Jan 28 2007, 01:27 AM
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#119
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Compared to those, it has a simplistic beauty. But there are gaps in the rules revolving around device ratings... which you wont't notice easily if playing a TM. |
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Jan 28 2007, 01:39 AM
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#120
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
The Device Ratings have gaps? They have a hard-as-hell-to-find chart and listing, but I really don't see "gaps."
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Jan 28 2007, 01:43 AM
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#121
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's not about Device Rating as a game term, just device rating... the very system devices and programs are rated.
The Agent searching the matrix example above is the most common one... whereas Sprites don't suffer such limits, and therefore, your TM won't run into them. |
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Jan 28 2007, 01:51 AM
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#122
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well,its mostly about gaps everywhere in the matrix rules. It has more gaps than rules . . . If you can live with your GM to fill them, that OK, but you should know that you are essentially running on implicit house rules. If you like SR4 matrix rules, you should of course stick to them and be happy. I for my part dont think it is good to call rules that plainly ignore most of the possible situations simple. You can always make every ruleset simpler by cutting out rules and writing "This is up to the GM". If this was simplicity, the simplest and best and most complete ruleset would be: "Everything is up to the GM". |
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Jan 28 2007, 02:41 AM
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#123
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I'd really like to test that theory that Emergence will placate all the 'We want UnWired!' people, but the fact that Emergence isnt out yet with no estimated date sorta complicates that...
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Jan 28 2007, 02:57 AM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
You've really got a check out this thread to see how even seemingly-simple and obvious things seem to have gaps and holes in rules. If you've had no problems before, it's likely that his interpretation of the rules or style of play has led to certain house rules decisions, whether he realizes it or not. Happens to me all the time. |
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Jan 28 2007, 04:20 AM
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#125
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 26-February 02 From: DC/NOVA, USA Member No.: 80 |
Actually, this does placate my minor complaint about the print order of Unwired. Sorry about dredging up a deceased equine for pummeling, but I haven't been around in awhile, so I must have missed the other (umpteen-1) times. :) I think the problem is that I've been disregarding Emergence as another mainly fluff adventure-track module, as I don't have any details on it other than the name at this point. But if you say there's a decent amount of Matrix 2.0 related crunch to go with the fluff, plus Big Events to Change the Matrix As We Know It™, I'll be quite satisfied until the Unwired release. I would still like some way of getting across just how much the world has changed in the seven game years since my last SR3 campaign ended, at least for the few players I'll have in my new game with that experience. I had a decker in my last game, and about three other characters with varying levels of technophobia, computer illiteracy, and even Gremlins flaws. I really would like something, other than a few sidebars, that would hammer home just how much the average citizen in 2070 relies on the new Matrix and augmented reality...and just how different it is from the olden days... Still, I'm quite pleased at how the books are turning out so far, I drooled like a happy fanboy for hours over Street Magic, so if you say there's a purpose behind the book ordering, and that I'll be pleased with the result, then all's well in this neck of the woods... |
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