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> FanPro 2006 Year In Review
Claw
post Jan 28 2007, 10:31 AM
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While Unwired won't change (much) rules, I don't think we'll get less house rules after release.
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Thain
post Jan 28 2007, 01:03 PM
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I read that thread, then I read my rulebook... allow me to get my law-student on and start citing:

QUOTE (SR4 p.218 @ second column, fifth full paragraph)

When you are dealing with a particular device, you roll Computer + Logic against an appropriate gamemaster-determined threshold. (1) When you are utilizing a particular program, you roll Computer + program rating. (2)


(1) Serbitar seems to object to the idea that the GM sets this threshold. I have not idea why. The GM sets the threshold for every single other test in the game. Now, it is true that I have been GMing one system or another for over fifteen years now, and the current GM of our campaign has an equal amount of experience. We're good at assigning TNs on the fly, but there is a big old chart in the book to help new GMs along.

(2) Yes, we thought it was odd at first that you roll skill + program, without attributes coming into the mix. But, we've been playing for a while now and it does seem to work very well. Logic is still important when designing programs, with background skills (IC Profiles, Matrix Topography, Corporate Security Procedures, etc.).

QUOTE (SR4 p.218 @ second column, sixth full paragraph, second sentence )

Note that computer only applies if you have authorized access(3) -- if you are trying to manipulate a node, program, of file illicitly, then you make a test with the Hacking skill instead (see p. 223). (4) (5)


(3) Thus, access is good. Security access is better. Admin access is best. Quoth the Hacker, "Got Root?"

(4) So, everything is Computer + Program or Hacking + Program, unless the specific action says otherwise (Cybercombat, for example.). Easy as kittens.

(5) On p. 219 there is a sizable list of Matrix Actions, and very rarely have I had to do anything on the Matrix that wasn't on this list, or completely mundane. (Checking the weather, booking hotel rooms, copying programs that I owned...)
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Brahm
post Jan 28 2007, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 28 2007, 08:03 AM)
(2) Yes, we thought it was odd at first that you roll skill + program, without attributes coming into the mix. But, we've been playing for a while now and it does seem to work very well. Logic is still important when designing programs, with background skills (IC Profiles, Matrix Topography, Corporate Security Procedures, etc.).

Yup, in the end how things play at the table trumps Serbitars ruminations on 2+2=proof the sky is purple. Extremely good rule of thumb is play a bunch first, then if need be start pulling a bunch of crap apart and making major changes.
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Serbitar
post Jan 28 2007, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 28 2007, 02:03 PM)

(1) Serbitar seems to object to the idea that the GM sets this threshold. I have not idea why. The GM sets the threshold for every single other test in the game. Now, it is true that I have been GMing one system or another for over fifteen years now, and the current GM of our campaign has an equal amount of experience. We're good at assigning TNs on the fly, but there is a big old chart in the book to help new GMs along.

Thats not the problem.
The problem is: There is no rule for how the node resists. And the node better should resist somehow, or somebody with Computer 1 and Hacking 5 will cry everytime he has to use computers instead of hacking.
Hacking should be inherently more difficult than using computers and thus be resisted.
And then, Editing something is one of the better discribed parts in matrix RAW. Other parts arent discribed at all, like patrolling IC and tons of other stuff (wich I really dont want to discuss here).

Furthermore: Why dont you keep this thread on topic and post that in the other thread instead of bringing it here?
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Synner
post Jan 28 2007, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (Dakhran the Dark)
I think the problem is that I've been disregarding Emergence as another mainly fluff adventure-track module, as I don't have any details on it other than the name at this point. But if you say there's a decent amount of Matrix 2.0 related crunch to go with the fluff, plus Big Events to Change the Matrix As We Know It™, I'll be quite satisfied until the Unwired release.

Do not misunderstand me. I meant what I said above: Emergence is a story/event book and to the best of my knowledge will have next to no Matrix crunch. It is intended to be fully playable with the Matrix rules in the core book period.
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Synner
post Jan 28 2007, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 28 2007, 02:57 AM)
QUOTE (Thain)
Actually, Serbitar, I find the Matrix rules work perfectly straight out of the book. My group and I have experimented with one or two alternate systems, including yours, and found all of them flawed, needlessly complex or too similar to prior editions.


You've really got a check out this thread to see how even seemingly-simple and obvious things seem to have gaps and holes in rules. If you've had no problems before, it's likely that his interpretation of the rules or style of play has led to certain house rules decisions, whether he realizes it or not. Happens to me all the time.

Correction: In many cases what is meant by "gaps" and "holes" in the rules,a ctually means lack of explanations or examples. I've been over this with Serbitar in the past and I'll reiterate what I said here in the hopes that it'll wrap this drift in the Year in Review Thread.

There's stuff in the rules which will naturally be revisited and explored in greater depth in Unwired (for instance Agents, IC and Advanced Encrytpion options), however, there are other "issues" that some people have brought up which FanPro doesn't consider a problem or an issue at all (for instance how IC patrols a node/system - the basic rules intend it to work just like you'd handle security guards or patrolling spirits and we're perfectly comfortable with simply adding what qualifies as a higher security system and what doesn't). There are even non-issues which come from interpretation of the rules rather than flaws with the rules themselves - many of which were cleared up in the FAQ, others not yet (for instance in an earlier version of Serbitar's house rules he suggested an Access ID - which for all intents and purposes is the commcode described on p.214 of SR4).

To waylay further drift on this subject, I promise that when appropriate, I'll open a thread similar to the Unofficial Hacking FAQ thread for everyone interested to post their comments and suggestions as to what topics could be/need to be expanded and addressed in Unwired.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 28 2007, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)
To waylay further drift on this subject, I promise that when appropriate, I'll open a thread similar to the Unofficial Hacking FAQ thread for everyone interested to post their comments and suggestions as to what topics could be/need to be expanded and addressed in Unwired.

That would not only be great, but rather essential - please do so:
The 'Un'official Hacking FAQ thread was closed quite early, and some issues never received clarifications.
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Serbitar
post Jan 28 2007, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Jan 28 2007, 03:49 PM)
There are even non-issues which come from interpretation of the rules rather than flaws with the rules themselves - many of which were cleared up in the FAQ, others not yet (for instance in an earlier version of Serbitar's house rules he suggested an Access ID - which for all intents and purposes is the commcode described on p.214 of SR4).

Oh, maybe thats a misunderstanding. The access ID is almost exactly the same as a commcode. I just use the other word to make sure that it has nothing to do with a telephone number, which is something completely different (but its the most common mistake made in this context, ive encountered in in countless questions), and give lengthy explanations because I think they are necessary for a deeper understanding (especially for a GM) of how the matrix works.

Just for protocoll (Synner already knows my opinion on that):
Patrolling IC needs rules so that runners using this IC can have a handle on how secure their system is. Everything else is just to vague especially when you want to handle matrix runs in couple of dice rolls. Patrolling IC played like security guards in real life can not really be handled consistently in few dice rolls. (Especially if there is no landscape to play on, you can not hide from the guard, VR is not real. It all comes down to perception test wich can be given rules.)

But I really dont want to turn this thread into a pro/con of matrix RAW. This is about design schedules of Unwired and related books.
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Dakhran the Dark
post Jan 28 2007, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)
Do not misunderstand me. I meant what I said above: Emergence is a story/event book and to the best of my knowledge will have next to no Matrix crunch. It is intended to be fully playable with the Matrix rules in the core book period.

I think I'm confused... :wobble:

1) Unwired has to be released after Emergence, or it would be half a book.
2) Emergence has no crunch, no extra rules in it.
3) Emergence can be run entirely on existing core rules.

Am I glitching on my Logic + Game Design roll, or does that make perfect sense to someone else?

Once again, it's not a major bitch, just a minor quibble, but there has to be something more substantial in Emergence if Unwired wouldn't be a complete book without it. Even if it's not actual true harder-than-gravel Grape-Nuts style crunch.
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Serbitar
post Jan 28 2007, 04:22 PM
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Well, imagine you have suprise X in Emergence. Unwired should cover everything Matrix related (not only crunch wise, but also fluff wise) and thus also suprise X.

Thus Unwired can not be released before Emergece without spoiling suprise X or leaving an important part, namely suprise X.

My problem is that suprise X can never be good enough to justify not releasing Unwired as the first or second supplemental rulebook (and never the last)
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cetiah
post Jan 28 2007, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
My problem is that suprise X can never be good enough to justify not releasing Unwired as the first or second supplemental rulebook (and never the last)

Seattle gets nuked. :P
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Synner
post Jan 28 2007, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 28 2007, 04:22 PM)
My problem is that suprise X can never be good enough to justify not releasing Unwired as the first or second supplemental rulebook (and never the last)

That's saying something considering you have no idea what surprise X is... or surprise Y and Z for that matter. Or whether any of them contradicts or changes the basic assumptions regarding Matrix use that you've extrapolated based on the core rules and fluff (not saying they do, just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning).

All I will say is that Emergence features further developments with regards to technomancers, hackers, megacorps, society at large, and computer use in general in 2070. These developments and events necessarily directly impact both the fluff and the crunch aspects of Unwired.

I shouldn't need to explain why putting out a rule book that covers all things Matrix, but lacks developments that might "change the way people view the Matrix" is a mistake on all levels.

Most fans would not be pleased to hear a few months later that the some of the fluff they've just read in their cool newly-acquired Matrix book needs to be updated to take into account events in Emergence (events FanPro warned all along would affect the Matrix and could have put out in a single Matrix book had it held off a little longer), and that if they wanted post-2070 fluff and crunch material pertaining to the developments in Emergence they'd also have to pickup some sort of follow up product.
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mfb
post Jan 28 2007, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
Patrolling IC played like security guards in real life can not really be handled consistently in few dice rolls. (Especially if there is no landscape to play on, you can not hide from the guard, VR is not real. It all comes down to perception test wich can be given rules.)

yeah, that's one aspect of the SR4 Matrix rules which mystifies me. IC is supposed to patrol, like a security guard... except that there's nothing to patrol. if you're on a node, entities on that node get to roll to spot you. it's not like you can wait until the IC is written to another part of temporary memory, then jump out and do your thing before the IC comes back.
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Serbitar
post Jan 28 2007, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Jan 28 2007, 05:55 PM)

That's saying something considering you have no idea what surprise X is... or surprise Y and Z for that matter. Or whether any of them contradicts or changes the basic assumptions regarding Matrix use that you've extrapolated based on the core rules and fluff (not saying they do, just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning).
.

Sure, that statement is purely based on speculation (well, mostly...).

And its only a personal opinion. After all I am not saying that there are no reasons to do it the way it was done (quite to the contrary, I see your reasoning and do understand it). I am merely saying that my priorities are (very) different.

However: Even there was a necessity to make Emergence so important by design (which I doubt), Unwired should have been scheduled to hit stores right after Emergence (Like: Rulebook X, Emergence, Unwired). But it never was and will arrive a year later.

And the reasons it not because of some "I prefer hackers so the hacker book should be first" argument, but because Unwired will have the highest impact on how SR4 society is seen and the matrix rules are the weakest and most uncomplete ruleset. Both magic, cyberware and gear are working perfectly without rule supplementals, matrix does not.

But this criticism is rather directed to Rob and not to you (and I appreciate it very very much that you are doing community work here).
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Brahm
post Jan 28 2007, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Patrolling IC played like security guards in real life can not really be handled consistently in few dice rolls. (Especially if there is no landscape to play on, you can not hide from the guard, VR is not real. It all comes down to perception test wich can be given rules.)

yeah, that's one aspect of the SR4 Matrix rules which mystifies me. IC is supposed to patrol, like a security guard... except that there's nothing to patrol. if you're on a node, entities on that node get to roll to spot you. it's not like you can wait until the IC is written to another part of temporary memory, then jump out and do your thing before the IC comes back.

That's in the case analogous to a security guard standing at a door. If it is an Agent patrolling on a circuit of related nodes you could wait till it moved to another node, which is the equivalent to being writing to a different peice of memory where they nolonger have LOS on you.
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mfb
post Jan 28 2007, 05:27 PM
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yeah, but that makes personal commlinks harder to hack than big corporate networks. besides which, agents don't take up all that much in the way of resources; there's no reason not to have one on every node, plus a few patrolling ones.
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warrior_allanon
post Jan 28 2007, 05:40 PM
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Alright i'm starting this by saying that i havent read the thread in its entirety, i got tired of the "This should have come first" arguments that was flooding it. Books will be out when they come out and in the order their finished regardless of what anyone else may want or think.

Now, as one of the semi-rabble who thought, (and somewhat still do) that SR4's direction was a mistake, i'm learning to enjoy SR4. It allows for teaching the fresh meat a bit quicker and easier since a lot of the people i'm dealing with in teaching the rules have the attention span of a gnat. Personally i had the combat rules for SR3 down by the end of my third game and only needed a cheat sheet for the ranges which i put on my character sheets anyway. Now instead of dealing with variable target numbers, my cheat sheet tells me what the threshold and dice number modification for the range is and not a target number modification.

As i commented when the game was being projected and i was Oh and woh-ing this new format makes it easier to pitch the idea of a game to my LARP friends and convince them to take their WOD games and throw them away, (mainly because they are hating where their fav game is going.) and play SR. So we might see a shift in the buyers who will take and use the old MET books to make SRlarps the thing for conventions.

Finally, a proposal, If Fanpro wants to keep the SR3 die hards in the fold, they might want to consider taking and converting, (or having some freelancers do so) the old adventures numbers from their orriginal settings (SR123) to SR4 and do a mass PDF publication of conversions. Basically say "Look people, you have all these old adventures and dont want to totally frag over your players, so heres the adjusted numbers for the characters and situations in those books."
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Synner
post Jan 28 2007, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (warrior_allanon)
Finally, a proposal, If Fanpro wants to keep the SR3 die hards in the fold, they might want to consider taking and converting, (or having some freelancers do so) the old adventures numbers from their orriginal settings (SR123) to SR4 and do a mass PDF publication of conversions. Basically say "Look people, you have all these old adventures and dont want to totally frag over your players, so heres the adjusted numbers for the characters and situations in those books."

Or FanPro might keep making fluff and event books with minimal to no crunch, and so make them (well, with a little creativity) playable/adaptable for people who stick with SR3 rules - which is current policy.
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Brahm
post Jan 28 2007, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2007, 12:27 PM)
yeah, but that makes personal commlinks harder to hack than big corporate networks.

A single node of the corp network, yes. If the commlink owner can afford the hardware and kickass IC to match the corp network. Which is where I think the problem lies, in the current cost/avail of the listed hardware, IC, and programs in general. :(

Of course there is the "bleeding edge" stuff that is mentioned, but that's just an open invitation to stat escalation/inflation.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 28 2007, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)
All I will say is that Emergence features further developments with regards to technomancers, hackers, megacorps, society at large, and computer use in general in 2070. These developments and events necessarily directly impact both the fluff and the crunch aspects of Unwired.

Well, we certainly are thrilled to see... both. 8)

[ Spoiler ]
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Adam
post Jan 28 2007, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE
Finally, a proposal, If Fanpro wants to keep the SR3 die hards in the fold, they might want to consider taking and converting, (or having some freelancers do so) the old adventures numbers from their orriginal settings (SR123) to SR4 and do a mass PDF publication of conversions. Basically say "Look people, you have all these old adventures and dont want to totally frag over your players, so heres the adjusted numbers for the characters and situations in those books."


I don't see the logic here. FanPro has released one print adventure, and also a monthly free adventure on their website. Adventure material is the one type of SR4 material that hasn't been lacking so far!

PDF releases of the old adventures are planned [and some are already available], but I don't see "I have old adventures and can't use them with SR4" as one of the main reasons that some people are sticking with SR3.
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mfb
post Jan 28 2007, 10:25 PM
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seriously.
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Thain
post Jan 28 2007, 11:19 PM
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I don't see why FanPro should give a devil rat's hoop over those who are sticking to the old edition.
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Konsaki
post Jan 28 2007, 11:35 PM
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Cause even if they are sticking with an old edition, they 'might' buy some of the new stuff to use. There's a demand, no matter how small...
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SL James
post Jan 29 2007, 12:06 AM
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QUOTE (Thain)
I don't see why FanPro should give a devil rat's hoop over those who are sticking to the old edition.

Because by buying five, ten, twenty-plus books we subsidized SR4 being produced, and some of us even went so far as to buy the last SR3 releases in spite of the fact that during the lead-up to SR4 it was made quite clear that Fanpro didn't give a fuck about our business because, hey, what difference does it make? They already got our money to pay for them to create a book which may or may not replace the revenue lost by consistent SR3 purchasers with new fans who may or may not come into the fold to buy SR4 books which, at this point, may or may not be released in a timely enough fashion to matter. They burned their bridges on that one, and as a result I am the only SR3-playing person I know who would even consider buying any more SR4 books beyond the core book.

So, to put it bluntly, because they fucking OWE it to the people who subsidized this new edition.
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