 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 29 2007, 08:17 PM
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#101
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Which is unfortunate, because the SR4 BBB contradicts itself, which means that anything you print contradicts the SR4 BBB one way or another. If your premises include A and ~A, then printing A or ~A is a contradiction of the original premises. This is why I didn't try to get on the Unwired team. I knew I couldn't explain this more than twenty times without calling Rob or Peter nasty names.
I'm going to stop you there before you confuse anyone else. The rules say:
That's fine, although it's needlessly confusing because players will essentially always hack themselves an Account appropriate to whatever they want to do before they attempt any other actions. In short, there's no reason for a lot of tests to be expressed as a Hacking attempt, because generally speaking you will be making a Computer roll for every test except Exploit. But moving on to the part that actually is contradictory rather than just confusing:
Oh crap. Everything you do is interacting with a device and utilizing a program. There are two mutually exclusive Dicepools that are both defined as being the pool that you use for every single action you perform on the Matrix. That's a big ho-doo problem that must be resolved at the institutional level. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:19 PM
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#102
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
So a TM can perform all tasks that a Commlink requires by using a cert credstick? Sweet. I need to tell my GM this. (Yeah, my TM has a commlink, but its a crappy 1/1/3/1. But with the all 6 credstick, I dont have to worry about that anymore. Plus, no one will think to hack a credstick to look for my data.) |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:19 PM
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#103
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats easily fixed, and does not prevent you from running agents on it. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:22 PM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well agents are supposed to be their own security.
So a world where every single thing is based on wireless transactions can function wihtout proper encryption? Have fun living in that world then . . .
Please re-iterate. I dont get your answer. I say subscription is anti streamlining by adding useless dice rolls but not changin anything. The right way to implement this is to add to hack in threshold. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:23 PM
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#105
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I am with you in this. I am just stating what I am told. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:29 PM
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#106
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You still need to instruct them - at which point they are basically ICs. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:32 PM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well of course, agents = IC (when on defensive roles). Whats the problem?
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Jan 29 2007, 08:34 PM
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#108
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Like I said - as soon as an intruder reaches Security clearence, he can simply tell your completly automated system to focus on things other than him, scan only once every hour, etc.
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Jan 29 2007, 08:40 PM
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#109
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, how smart are agents?
how big of a mind trick can you trow at them and expect them to figure it out? |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:47 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
True, but a hacker wont be there 24/7 in the first place, so again, what is the drawback of a human steered agent? A rating X agent is basically a hacking/computer/datasearch X skillwire. @hobgoblin: Thats why you look over the agents shoulder and just order it to do test X. Like a skillwire. And send multiple copies of agents elsewhere to do other things. |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:02 PM
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#111
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Please specify the case in which this is used. Do you mean the Agent in Persona case? |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:10 PM
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#112
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
In the case where you load the agent and the software you want on your comlink and instruct the agent to do this, that and this, while watching what it is doing.
Works exactly like skillwires. Cant use edge and specialisation, but does exactly what you want. |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:15 PM
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#113
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There's a difference between driving a car with skillwires and getting a cab...
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Jan 29 2007, 09:17 PM
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#114
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Not rules wise, and thats what effectively counts.
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Jan 29 2007, 09:29 PM
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#115
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's about as funny as how firearms can replace any other skill. :dead:
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Jan 29 2007, 09:39 PM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
???
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Jan 29 2007, 09:50 PM
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#117
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Is that a joke on 'if you cant do something, shoot it'? :|
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Jan 29 2007, 09:56 PM
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#118
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Munchkins Guide To Powergaming
Need to pick a lock? Shoot it with your gun! Need to talk your way past a guard? Wave your gun at them! etc etc |
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Jan 29 2007, 10:05 PM
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#119
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
In that case the key is to explicitly say "ignore the rules in the BBB and only use the rules in this book" and then completely rewrite the entire rules section in unwired. What used to kill me with FASA is that they would seemingly rewrite a critical paragraph or two and embed it in another book, so you had to figure out what part of the base rules to use and what part got changed every time you need to look something up. |
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Jan 29 2007, 10:12 PM
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#120
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
So Rotbarts answer was just a meaningless joke without any actual content? |
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Jan 29 2007, 10:16 PM
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#121
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
That's not what I thought, but then again, my opinion is my own. |
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Jan 29 2007, 10:19 PM
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#122
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Here, maybe I can help translate: Rotbart:You're wrong. Serbitar: No I'm not. Rotbart: Yes you are. All clear? I really think Serbitar's got an excellent point in equating the artificial intelligence of a drone to the "artificial intelligence" that can be granted through cyberwear (skillwire). If you can program a chip that can plug "Hacking" skill into a person, why is a stretch to assume a similiar program can plug "Hacking" skill into an agent? (This, of course, assumes you have independant agents as NPCs to begin with, which so far hasn't yet been awcknoledged by everyone. I, for one, felt the concept of agents as independant NPCs took more out of the game than they added and got rid of them.) |
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Jan 29 2007, 10:30 PM
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#123
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I don't see how you have said anything different than in my post. Using an account with approriate priviledges, use Computer, else use Hacking...we are saying the same thing, just trying to figure out why you think I am confusing anyone. By practice, hackers in my game are using Hacking to get to an admin account, but once with the admin account, the are rolling with Computer because those actions are legal with that account. I disagree that everything you do is interacting with a device AND utilizing a program. If I am in my office lounge, operating a coffee machine by hand, I would use Logic + Skill. If I was at my desk operating the same coffee machine via AR/VR, I am using Program + Skill. I think you are avoiding the fact that there is "logic" behind that difference of interacting. Same thing with a door lock or a security camera. If you are accessing them via the "security room" controls, physically, you would be using your Logic + Skill. Otherwise, you are in AR/VR accessing them remotely and therefore use Program + Skill. @Serbitar I still don't see how you can marginalize the differences between a commlink, a coffee machine and a credstick. Just because they all could be 6/6/6/6, doesn't mean they have the same functions. I do agree they are all nodes, but that doesn't mean you can do EVERYTHING from any node... I agree with the previous posters on the interface difference. In my mind, a credstick can't do anything other than two-way communication between a POS device and a financial institution...its a gateway of sorts. I wouldn't let players store extra data on one, load it up with IC or agents or even run programs from it... I just feel that there are difference in similarly rated nodes...if there weren't than why isn't everything a commlink? No need to any electronic devices other than commlinks... |
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Jan 29 2007, 10:47 PM
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#124
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Such equation would only hold true if using an Agent would require the user the same amount and type of actions to achieve a desired result and, additionally, if the attributes used were the same. Which isn't the case. It's not even the case that skillwires provide any sort of AI - they provide memorys. When using an Agent, the only action by the user is the Command action specifying the goal, and the Agent performs the required actions while making decisions. When using skillwires, the user itself is performing those actions, making any decisions directly. Basically, you can't even call it 'comparison'. It's a bad joke to begin with, and is only comparable to the munchkins mantra 'If you can't do something, stick a gun in somebody's face and threaten him into doing it for you.' |
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Jan 29 2007, 11:05 PM
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#125
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The problem with this assessment is that the rules example is made for using AR/VR as well. So:
As written, both answers are correct. On page 223, it gives credence to both interpretations. And of course, those interpretations are not the same, and the differences are extremely stark. Indeed, they can't even simply coexist with a "use whichever is better" approach, since the Hacker's Logic is going to be much higher than his Exploit program and doesn't require possession of illegal software that costs thousands of :nuyen:. -Frank |
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