 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 30 2007, 08:41 AM
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#142
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
Do the math. Post it. Post a starting TM and a starting hacker. Count BPs. Count Karma till the TM equals the starting hacker. Then we will see. I did the math. Often. I wont accept your reasoning without any proof.
Could you please post the section from BBB that tells you this? These are your house rules. So a credstick is not a node? Read my quotes further below. Additonal memory? In SR4 memory is abundant even in your gun. an OS to support hacking? The credstick already has rating 6/6 OS. With the simrig part you are right though, but thats hardware.
This is even mroe housruled. So you cant run programs on any node there is? When does a node qualify for running software? Does it need the "Can run software" tag? Please give proof from SR4. You can not just make statements and claim they are RAW when they arent. here is SR4:
Conclusion: Everything is a node. A node is a CPU. You can run software on it. The node does not care at all what software it is. You can not just invent stuff and say that it is obvious. |
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Jan 30 2007, 08:55 AM
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#143
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
By what judgement if the SC does not possess the skill? The one making the technical decisions is still the Agent.
Actions are crunch, so had you hate them wenn boosted people have more in martix and vehicles.
Read again.
It's a completly different setup with possibilities different to each other, taking different Actions and introducing different weaknesses (Spoofing & Combat). The rules are not the same for giving orders and doing things yourself. |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:34 AM
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#144
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I am not talking about the oder by command software version. I am talking about the order by "order" version.
And again, please give an example. |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:47 AM
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#145
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There is no such thing. You can remote control or issue orders, but both require the Command program.
No, that's the first time you are asking...
..for a situational example - which you are to give, since you claimed something. Let me set the specific situation: AR 'Hacker' uses Skillwires + Exploit to probe a target vs. AR 'Hacker' uses Agent + Exploit to probe a target. Assume all Ratings to be 4, 'Hacker' has 1 IP. |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:55 AM
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#146
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Actually, I seem to recall that the Command program isn't required to issue orders. It is only used for remote control.
I'm sorry I can't give you the precise references right now, but I remember spending quite some time to read everything related to this and getting to that conclusion. |
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Jan 30 2007, 10:17 AM
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#147
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You're right - so it actually boils down to this:
The latter is the only way to do so anyways, not using the Commad program. |
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Jan 30 2007, 04:11 PM
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#148
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Yeah! You got it! |
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Jan 30 2007, 04:18 PM
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#149
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
no:
Well, in this case the Agent is even better than skillwires, as it is always working at VR speeds, so you might consider a VR example. But concerning the example: Both roll 8 dice. The skillwire guy rolling hacking(skillwired) + exploit, the guy with the agent buy saying: Hey agent hack in there and letting roll the agent rating + exploit. Once a problem occurs, the hacker with skillwires just does what he wants to do, while the hacker is watching the agent via VR or AR and is telling the agent what to do. Would you now please post the problems with the: "controlled agent = skillwires" (again, rues wise, number of dice and game mechanics, not fluff) comparison? Otherwise I am really beginning to waste my time. |
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Jan 30 2007, 04:47 PM
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#150
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Serbitar:
I'm at work now but I'll get to the number crunching on the characters as soon as I get a chance. As for the rest, I wasn't really talking house rules, I'm talking an off the freaking cuff answer that popped into my head. If you take a hundred shadowrun GM's, if one guy actually allows someone to use a credstick as a commlink, that guy is an exceptional moron, and I wouldn't want to play with him anyway. Now, to clear up confusion, I didn't say the credstick wasn't a node. I accept it is a node. I said it lacked proper interfaces to be a commlink. Huge difference. It lacks the OS to run most applications directly. Its a dedicated server. Sure, you can steal it's ram (or whatever) to store data on, but thats about it. It's not a 'house rule' its common sense. Let me put it too you this way. I have an MP3 player. It's essentially a solid state external drive, yeah? Now, I can go buy a solid state external hard drive, set it up with an OS and run it as a computer... if I hook it up to a computer first. It's a bit harder with the MP3 player. In fact, it's impossible to use the MP3 player as a computer without ripping the bastared apart and doing all sorts of crazy shit to it... so much that it would be easier to use a damn computer in the first place. Yes, it has an OS on it, one designed solely to facilitate playing music. Yes, it has memory... no problems there, yes it even has an interface... again, one solely dedicated to playing music. It's an idiot savant of a computer, totally useless outside of its purpose. Same thing with credsticks. Common sense, that's all it takes. Same thing with devices. Sure... they are wireless, sure they are nodes. Sure, you can interact with them, store data on them, even run software on their ram (or whatever) as a periphrial in your net... but you still need the central processor with the OS and the interface (simnet/keyboard/datajack) to actually DO anything. Now, to me that means the simple fix to all of these debates about using credsticks and coffeemakers as commlinks is to insert one single line that says: "Must have a commlink to actually interact with the wired world." If only to replace the use of 'common sense' as a 'house rule'. For all I know, they DID say that somewhere and every one of us missed it because the damn chapter is organized like scrambled eggs. |
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Jan 30 2007, 04:56 PM
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#151
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I already addressed this exact point some time ago, so I'll just reprint it word for word. Since you're new, I'll assume you missed this discussion the first time around:
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Jan 30 2007, 05:22 PM
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#152
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Serbitar, I want to first say that I have used pieces of your rules enhancements and respect your opinion on all this stuff, but I think that by not actually playing SR4 or better yet, trying to run a campaign, your perspective is skewed...at least compared to some of us that do play and have to manage these rules on a daily/weekly basis for our players. Using the above quote, "for use in certain Matrix interactions," sticks out to me. I agree with you that everything is a node, but I don't agree that all nodes are equal. If you want to call it a houserule, fine... But I still think you need to take that into account...there is nothing that supports/defeats the claim that all nodes are the same and therefore all actions can be performed from them... The examples of downloading music to your jacket...I assume you believe that that means everything electronic has storage capability...while I agree that ANYTHING COULD, I don't believe that means EVERYTHING DOES...maybe that's a fine line, but I think when you have to actually take the rules and pull them into a functioning gaming group, you have to "invent" stuff where the RAW is unclear or indecisive. @Frank Let me ask you this...what is your definition of access a device directly? And then define what your definition is of accessing a device with a program? To me, using your hacking a camera example, you would use Logic + Skill if you were sitting in the security control room, punching buttons and swiveling dials. That's direct access. If you are in VR/AR, in any way, you are using your Program + Skill...and I think that is why they are both in the book...and to me, make sense. And I think I have had it easy, because the hacker in the group I run for has their logic at 5, hacking and computer at 5 and all his programs at 5... |
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Jan 30 2007, 05:53 PM
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#153
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Currently, I'm running 3 separate SR4 campaigns.
Well, if you are manually operating and compromising the devices, you roll Logic + Hardware. That's clear. But if you are hacking a device directly, you roll:
I'm not talking about breaking a device open and fiddling with the contents, that's a hardware check. I'm talking about you having a direct wireless connection to the device and attempting to scam yourself an account in it - that's a Logic + Hacking test according to the rules. And that means that programs are for suckers (except Stealth and ECCM). -Frank |
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Jan 30 2007, 07:13 PM
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#154
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Good to know, as that gives me a little more perspective of where you are coming from. I know Serbitar isn't actively in any, which sometimes explains the line of thought I perceive from him...90% of his ideas are solid, IMO, and I have used a lot of his matrix rules. I am not talking about opening a device and fiddling with the contents though, but I agree, that is a Logic + Hardware. I'm talking about physically interacting with the device through its "legal" controls. I think that is the shade that the Logic + Skill, test is referring to, and still feel it is valid. So: Logic + Hardware is used when you have the cover off the security camera and you're fiddling with its internals. Logic + Skill (in this case, Hacking, as you mentioned) is used when you are sitting behind the controls, switching cameras on the monitors (in a security room), hitting buttons and turning dials. Computer + Program is used when you have an account, accessing the camera via AR/VR, and performing legal actions in the node. Hacking + Program is used when you have an account, accessing the camera via AR/VR, and performing illegal actions in the node. That is all RAW and makes sense, at least to me. I think there is an issue with the term hacking, as it really doesn't carry a negative connotation by definition. Hacking pretty much means "fiddling around in a way to learn more". So, someone that is "directly accessing" said camera controls from the security room, without training or so forth, would be "hacking", as they are figuring out how to zoom the camera, switch to view six, etc... I mean, what good is a Stealth or Command program if you aren't accessing the camera from AR/VR? None. That is why if you are using the controls that are meant to access the camera, i.e. "direct access" by hand, then you would use that Logic + Hacking test... |
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Jan 30 2007, 07:24 PM
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#155
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, script kiddies vs 1337 ;) |
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Jan 30 2007, 07:35 PM
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#156
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Slightly off topic, but the ironic thing here is, I actually use Serbitar's houserule to roll matrix tests as Logic + Skill, using Program Rating + 1 as the max number of successes allowed...I find that a much smoother system in-game and my players like it as well.
But for sake of this debate, I have stuck to RAW, which I don't actually use, in these instances... |
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Jan 30 2007, 07:36 PM
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#157
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Dude, there's totally a Hardware skill for that. If you are technically manipulating a device, you use the Hardware skill (p. 124). Or to put it another way:
There really is a "Matrix Action" that calls for Logic + Hacking. It's described on p. 223. There's also a Logic + Computer test called for when "Doctoring up an image for blackmail purposes" or "Editing the logs to eliminate traces of your activities" (p. 218). Really. It's a very major contradiction. As written if you just voluntarily decide to not use an Edit program, your dice pool has a tendency to go up. -Frank |
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Jan 30 2007, 07:51 PM
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#158
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say...I don't think you would be using Hardware skill if you are using the camera's joystick to pan a camera...but anyways...
On page 218, under Using Computer Skill, if you're saying you would never use a "particular device" without utilizing a "particular program", then yes, it doesn't make sense to have two different tests. Personally, while not often, I can see where I would call for a Computer + Logic test (maybe using a fax machine, as the player may not be using an Edit program). I guess it just comes down to individual tastes. If you are going to require every action requiring a program, than a Computer + Logic test would really never come into play. |
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Jan 30 2007, 08:38 PM
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#159
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, this was the whole point of the example: You realized that using skillwires and ordering an Agent are not equal concerning the rules. |
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Jan 30 2007, 08:42 PM
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#160
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i would say its a case of programs providing the AR and VR user interfaces for whatever actions you want to do.
only that in AR and VR any kind of action can be the right action (pointing at someone and gesturing as if the hand was a gun to launch a attack program). but in the physical world your limited by how logical the layout of the physical buttons and switches are ;) |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:13 PM
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#161
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Frank: I'm responding to your somewhat dismissive post.
First, I'm not even going to get into the 'ADEPT' hacker right now. Neither am I going to talk about 150 karma in, I'm talking 'straight out the box'...where almost every player approaches character creation. I can make a TM with 5/5/5/5, representing his mental attributes and resonance with a couple of points left over to boost his physical stats so he's not a total milquetoast. I can spend the same number of skill points as the box hacker (who has slightly more even stats, not needing the straight fives in mental) on the actual hacking skills (for my test bed, I used skill groups to four, but I could easily have broken it up and been a bit pickier about getting select skills to six), for hacking and electronics, and still had some points for the tasking group, which honestly taking decompiling is probably a waste, making it possible get more bang for the buck by leaving it out and just taking the skills (and specializations). I'll dispute that a TM needs anywhere near 18 Complex forms. Unlike the hacker, the TM can thread a CF he doesn't have for low level applications, like 'command X'. I picked up 8 at level 5 and had 15 points for gear and contacts left over. True, by the time the hacker, who it should be pointed out at this point is only running a 4/5/3/4 deck (by the book), though I went ahead and bought all his software to 5 (though, again, left off various command programs...) the TM is out of points, and the hacker has 90 BP left (figuring the same base 15 points for gear/conctacts BEFORE buying hacker hardware...) Those 90 points however can't really increase him much, though you could get Codeslinger etc., more likely he'll buy up edge, maybe a metatype, spread some points around for other skills (guns?) making him more of a generalist. Now, in the final view, the TM is faster and more perceptive, not to mention more versatile with his threading and sprites, but he's a specialist. Of course, you can't take his gear away from him, and only another, rare, TM can attempt to spoof his sprites. The hacker has the same raw ability but to start out he's weaker in the wireless world due to hardware limits and is more hampered when he doesn't have the right software loaded up. In the long game, both players can improve roughly the same for a while. Extra dice? yeah, buy up the individual skill and get specializations. To catch up on hardware the hacker has to spend money on better gear, the TM needs to spend Karma... sort of like how a Sam needs better cyber while an adept/mage needs to spend karma. New CF's are dirt cheap (bought like knowledge skills) comparatively. Neither character is uber specialized, though the TM is more specialized to hacking activities than the 'hacker', which makes sense, neh? Now, your out of the box hacker adept? So, he's spending some of his 90 points on buying up magic, unless you mean a magic one adept, and sure, his dice adder boost is potent shit. It's a marginal concept if you ask me, and it opens a whole can of worms outside hacking. He's still dependent upon hardware, like the normal hacker, and when the other side's mages see he's adept (or the paracritters...) he's a target, where the TM isn't. So, let's review: Hacking adept? Broken concept, and I think a marginal one. Call me crazy, but I've never seen anyone ever try it before. Out of the box the TM has the advantage over mundane hackers, and, as the mundane hacker gets the nuyen rolling in for better, custom gear, the gap closes, until we hit... much less than your 920 karma I suspect, where the TM starts Submerging and ignores the caps that keep the mundane hacker back. So, the TM is weaker in the mid-range, but not excessively. That weakness in 'raw ability' is partially, if not completly negated by the abilities the TM brings that simply can not be matched by straight dice. No limits on numbers of CF forms running, vs program/system limits. Threading, scripting sprites... To make up your 'three point' bonus from being an adept all the TM needs to do is thread his CF's, and if the concentration penality is an issue, hand it off to a sprite for a few combat rounds. Or do you need me to post the dice pools for all three 'out of the box' characters? |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:36 PM
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#162
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
well, my whole point was to proove that agents are as good as skillwires. And skillwires are capped at 4 agents arent. Got the point? |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:37 PM
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#163
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
??? I am playing SR every week for 5 hours. |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:47 PM
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#164
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Even that isn't the case - Agents are different from Skillwires. For certain tasks they are better, and usless for others. |
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Jan 30 2007, 09:58 PM
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#165
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Again, give one example when they can not do something skillwires can do.
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Jan 30 2007, 10:02 PM
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#166
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Agents can be attached to your commlink's personna or loaded to a node if you have the correct rights to do so.
No matter which way it is loaded, it uses Agent Rating + Program, with respect to the personna/node stats, to determine it's dicepool. An Agent's dicepool has a max of 12 dice, with Agent Rating being and program both being Rank 6. Agents CAN load and unload programs stored in its own programming. Agents CAN NOT load other Agents. Am I wrong about any of the last five lines? This last stuff is some of my take on Agents and how they act in the Matrix. IMO, Agents can be best described as Drones for the Matrix. They take the last command given to them and try to complete it to the best of their ability dependant on the programs they have loaded on them. |
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