 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
  |
 Jan 30 2007, 10:13 PM
Post
#167
|
|||
|
Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Yes. You can make a Technomancer with a 5 in every mental attribute, leaving you enough points to have a 2 in every physical attribute. Congratulations. Also you can start with a Resonance of 6 and 10 Complex Forms at rating 6. Again, congratulations. Now consider the BP you just spent. Now let's give a Hacker a Commlink with a Response and Signal of 5 and a System and Firewall of 6 (see p. 240, 321, and 96 of the basic book). Now let's hand out every single program in the basic book at rating 6. All of that together costs 121,160 :nuyen: - a sizable fortune. A sizeable fortune that sets you back all of 25 build points. Has that sunk in? I just made a guy with bigger numbers than you in everything for less BP than it cost you to get 5 complex forms. And it only ever gets worse, because the Hacker can be an Adept. And the Hacker can have points left over to be a Face or a Street Sam. And the Hacker can get cyberware, and so on and so forth. --- Really. This is a known balance issue. It's not up for debate, it's egg on the face of the initial design team of 4th edition Shadowrun. -Frank |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 10:17 PM
Post
#168
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
There is only two points in that where the TM comes out ahead. The fact that the TM's crap cant be taken away or destroyed and the other is Sprites... Never underestimate the power of those little buggers. Still, I agree that TM's need some love to put them on better ground compared to the starting hacker. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 30 2007, 10:41 PM
Post
#169
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Frank-
Again with the rating 6/6/6/6 thing? Maybe I've had a different gaming life than you do, but the 'upgrade table' that you pointed to? yeah, I've met damn few GM's that would let a starting player go that route. Buy the listed gear and upgrade in game. You can call it a house rule if you like. Sort of like D&D's 1's are critical failures for everything. It's a house rule, but one that a huge percentage of groups use, enough to be almost standard... almost. And you still dismiss/ignore threading. You never even adress it. Straight out of the box that TM can potentially have a rating of 10 on his CF's, making his dice pool equal to the 15 of your hacker adept and completely raping the mundane hacker. That's just the Rating + Attribute, not counting any other factors into the pool. I agree that TM's are pricier and harder to get useful across the board. I just don't think they are completely utterly shit compared to their counterparts, as you do. I still think your '920 karma in the hole' is completely over the top disingenious. And we STILL haven't got into exactly what they can accomplish with their free sprites! Of course I suspect you just skimmed part of my post. I gave nothing out at 6. If I did that, then the dice pool jumps to 17, bypassing your hacker. Sure, not every time, I mean, he's got to roll it, after all. And remember, unlike your adept, his dice pool will grow as he gets expirence. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 10:58 PM
Post
#170
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Concerning Matrix: Any defensive roll your Persona has to make is made by it's loaded Programs and your skill - Agents never even get to roll for you. Concerning the rest... uh, well, about everything not covered by the very limited skillset of the Agent. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 11:00 PM
Post
#171
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
for some reason i suspect that this argument could be used against any source of dice that do not require the character to have the actual skill and/or stat... hmm, a SR medic kit anyone? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 11:04 PM
Post
#172
|
|||||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
err, i think serbitars idea was that the agent would be the only "persona" present in the host. it would have a subscription back to your comlink to take commands from you, but otherwise would be on its own. kinda like having a soldier in the field being micromanaged by a general back at base ;) something tells me that comprehension tests should be in order :vegm: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 30 2007, 11:54 PM
Post
#173
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The persona is not there. Only the agent is out there, with you watching on a tramper, see what the agent sees in your home node. The persona is never in danger, only the agent is, which is obviously rolling its own defence. Furthermore, agents ratings covera all skills used in the matrix. Please tell me that those two are not your main objections I am wasting my time on. If this is really the case I will have to wonder whether it is useful to regard your reasoning in the future. At the moment it seems like you only disagree because you want to disagree. @Hobgoblin: thanks, exactly. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 30 2007, 11:57 PM
Post
#174
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
True, but nothing is as valuable and important as hacking, except magic. And we all know that the "magic" agent, spirit of man with spells, is a problem itself. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:00 AM
Post
#175
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
But it wouldnt be "indecisive" at all, when you would just give those devices a Response rating of 1 or 2. You wouldnt have to worry about these things. Everything is just a node, and SR4 is designed with this in mind, for streamlining and simplcitiy, you can find that in allmost every part of the matrix chapter. If response was independent from system, the ruleset would instantly gain a lot. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:05 AM
Post
#176
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
QFT! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:08 AM
Post
#177
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You cant take away an implantet commlink. Make it delta and it will hardly show up on scanners. TM Spirits are broken because there is no limit for services. Every TM will try and spend 100% of his free time to register sprites to make up for the lack of CFs. There is a thread on DSF that discusses that. It actually proves (and its not me who does this) that a TM is only usable as a sprite registering machine. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 01:42 AM
Post
#178
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I wont disagree with you on that point, Serb. Even so, using that tactic they 'work' even though it isnt just like a hacker.
This is straight out of RAW too. Like I've said in the past though, I would like to see TM love to get them on par with most of the other archtypes. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 06:18 AM
Post
#179
|
|||||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's a premise, which does not need to hold true. In which case differences you asked for become obvious. On the other hand, if it is true and you did not load the Agent into your Persona, it will be limited to the Enemy Node's rating and only as good as the IC, while when using skillwire, such limitations would not exist. In that case, the benefit of using an Agent is only that you can save yourself time whith tossing a coin instead of rolling dice.
Not Electronic Warfare. Which is only available as Autosoft for Drones. It's fun to see how you stack up premises and go the extra mile to not admit how work by proxy is different from doing things yourself, though - especially since this is implicit. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 09:16 AM
Post
#180
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You still have not proven that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:03 AM
Post
#181
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I have. You only accepted that when the result was better for the Agent than for Skillwires, though. So let's make another example, which shows the opposite: Skillsoft 4 + Program 6, run per Persona vs. Agent 6 + Program 6 - starting on Home Node with Device Rating 6, evading detection on a Proxy Node with Device Rating 3 and IC 3 + Program 3 and hacking the chained Target Node with Device Rating 3 OTF for user clearance. Step-by-step: Hacking Proxy Node: 10 dice for skillwires, 12 for Agents - both Tests uncritical as VR-probing is used. Both Icons will enter the Proxy node most likely undetected, the Agent being potentially faster - though on average, both will need two hours. Evading Detection on Proxy Node: 10 dice for Skillwire, 6 for Agent (Pilot & Program capped by Respones of Proxy Node) - 6 dice for IC. However, inside the Proxy Node, the Agent is more likely to be detected by IC - in fact, it's 50:50. Hacking Target Node: 10 dice for Skillwire, 6 for Agent - test critical as hacking OTF, 3 hits needed. The subsequent hacking of the target node will take the Agent two turns on average, the Skillwires one - in which case the Agent is twice as likely to be detected by the Firewall than the Skillwires. Conclusion: The Agents performance degrades with the performance of the target network, removing any advantage derived from ratings. :proof: PS: Using low Response Chokepoints, Agents loaded with more than one Program will have their effective Response dropped to 0, too. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:13 PM
Post
#182
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Wrong. The proxy node rating is only then relevant, when the agent is uploaded to and run by the proxy. It is not. It is still running on the hackers commlink. There is no need to upload it at all. But finally I know why you think what you think. Thanks for clearing that up. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:29 PM
Post
#183
|
|||||||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You got that at least that one.
No. Agent's run either within the Hackers persona, and thus on his commlink (acessing every Node the Persona accesses), or, when running independently, on the node they are acessing right now.
That's the reason why this whole 'OMG, Agent Smith!!!111oneoneone' talk is based on nothing more than a mistaken interpretation of the rules. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:38 PM
Post
#184
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats why the agent is running on the hackers commlink. The presence of the persona is irrelevant, it doesnt do anything anyways, the agent is doing everything. Relevant is where the agent is using the resources, thats where it counts toward the program limit, and where it is using the Reponse rating. You dont really believe that an agent is hijacking system resourcets wherever he goes (even if he goes somewhere leaglly) and uploading himself to the node, while he could just be run by the commlink he originated and just interact with the other nodes like every software does, do you? Of course you can do that, to free yourself from the impact on your CPU, if the target nodes allow it (or if the agent hacks the rights to load itself up every time) but you need not. Please show me the part of the rules that say, that the agent has to go wherever the persona goes. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:47 PM
Post
#185
|
|||||||||||||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, no - in that case, you have an sitting-duck Persona on every System you 'command' your Agent - which you claimed isn't the case for your perfect matrix-skillwire-replacement. Otherwise, like I said, the Agent wouldn't be able to make any defensive rolls for the Persona carrying him, but crashing together with her. Wich basically makes that taktic very stupid.
An independent Agent does that per RAW.
Only a Persona can do that.
Please show me where the rules state that the Agent has a Persona at all. Hint: They don't, but seperate between Persona, Agent, IC, Sprite and Program, especially for the purpose of Cybercombat. To summarize: There is neither a practical application for the Agent Smith scenario, nor is it allways possible to let an Agent subistitute for you Skills. |
||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:52 PM
Post
#186
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
serbitar, page 227, the apart about using agents clearly (to me atleast) state that eithter the agent is loaded as just another program into the persona or have to be uploaded onto a external node to act independently.
its cant use a node as a home base and roam the matrix. it either has to jump from node to noe, or be surgically attached to a persona... |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:57 PM
Post
#187
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
If you interpret the rules that way, then Rotbart is right. Especially concerning his last post. Now somebody has to tell me, why you can not run your agent on your commlink and just let it access other nodes but have to load it up to the node it just wants to interact with. This would be completely insane. Its like having to load your browser software onto the apache-server to look at the http content. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 01:01 PM
Post
#188
|
|||||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Obviously - to limit them. Which actually works too well, as long as there is no distinction between subscription and connection.
Do you finally understand why I'm complaining that even with the FAQ, ordering an Agent to search the Matrix creates a definition problem for the dice you roll on the extended test? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 01:04 PM
Post
#189
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
because the rules say so?
sure, there are no "logical" reason why one can not do so... while its not spelled out anywhere, it seems that a independent agent simulates a persona, but does so by running itself on the node its currently interacting with or something like that. it has all the stats of a persona. and it appears to have all the capability's of a persona. but unlike a persona it does not have a home node as its just another program jumping running on the node. hmm, i think i have equaled a agent with a virtual node before. maybe i should have equaled it with a virtual persona :P |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 01:08 PM
Post
#190
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's an Icon that is more like a virtual node - it count's a one Program to the Node, but runs multiple Programs on it's own System. AFAIS, you can't directly hack a Persona, but must track back it's datatrail to it's home node. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 01:09 PM
Post
#191
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, i personally think once more that the matrix rules are screwed up beyond I dont know. The counter intuitiveness is a monstrosity beyond compare.
As a side note: Would you give your examples a little bit earlier next time and not after I asked for them 3-4 times? Would have helped a lot. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 2nd January 2026 - 11:41 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.