 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 31 2007, 12:05 AM
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#176
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
QFT! |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:08 AM
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#177
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You cant take away an implantet commlink. Make it delta and it will hardly show up on scanners. TM Spirits are broken because there is no limit for services. Every TM will try and spend 100% of his free time to register sprites to make up for the lack of CFs. There is a thread on DSF that discusses that. It actually proves (and its not me who does this) that a TM is only usable as a sprite registering machine. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:42 AM
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#178
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I wont disagree with you on that point, Serb. Even so, using that tactic they 'work' even though it isnt just like a hacker.
This is straight out of RAW too. Like I've said in the past though, I would like to see TM love to get them on par with most of the other archtypes. |
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Jan 31 2007, 06:18 AM
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#179
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's a premise, which does not need to hold true. In which case differences you asked for become obvious. On the other hand, if it is true and you did not load the Agent into your Persona, it will be limited to the Enemy Node's rating and only as good as the IC, while when using skillwire, such limitations would not exist. In that case, the benefit of using an Agent is only that you can save yourself time whith tossing a coin instead of rolling dice.
Not Electronic Warfare. Which is only available as Autosoft for Drones. It's fun to see how you stack up premises and go the extra mile to not admit how work by proxy is different from doing things yourself, though - especially since this is implicit. |
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Jan 31 2007, 09:16 AM
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#180
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You still have not proven that. |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:03 AM
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#181
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I have. You only accepted that when the result was better for the Agent than for Skillwires, though. So let's make another example, which shows the opposite: Skillsoft 4 + Program 6, run per Persona vs. Agent 6 + Program 6 - starting on Home Node with Device Rating 6, evading detection on a Proxy Node with Device Rating 3 and IC 3 + Program 3 and hacking the chained Target Node with Device Rating 3 OTF for user clearance. Step-by-step: Hacking Proxy Node: 10 dice for skillwires, 12 for Agents - both Tests uncritical as VR-probing is used. Both Icons will enter the Proxy node most likely undetected, the Agent being potentially faster - though on average, both will need two hours. Evading Detection on Proxy Node: 10 dice for Skillwire, 6 for Agent (Pilot & Program capped by Respones of Proxy Node) - 6 dice for IC. However, inside the Proxy Node, the Agent is more likely to be detected by IC - in fact, it's 50:50. Hacking Target Node: 10 dice for Skillwire, 6 for Agent - test critical as hacking OTF, 3 hits needed. The subsequent hacking of the target node will take the Agent two turns on average, the Skillwires one - in which case the Agent is twice as likely to be detected by the Firewall than the Skillwires. Conclusion: The Agents performance degrades with the performance of the target network, removing any advantage derived from ratings. :proof: PS: Using low Response Chokepoints, Agents loaded with more than one Program will have their effective Response dropped to 0, too. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:13 PM
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#182
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Wrong. The proxy node rating is only then relevant, when the agent is uploaded to and run by the proxy. It is not. It is still running on the hackers commlink. There is no need to upload it at all. But finally I know why you think what you think. Thanks for clearing that up. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:29 PM
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#183
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You got that at least that one.
No. Agent's run either within the Hackers persona, and thus on his commlink (acessing every Node the Persona accesses), or, when running independently, on the node they are acessing right now.
That's the reason why this whole 'OMG, Agent Smith!!!111oneoneone' talk is based on nothing more than a mistaken interpretation of the rules. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:38 PM
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#184
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats why the agent is running on the hackers commlink. The presence of the persona is irrelevant, it doesnt do anything anyways, the agent is doing everything. Relevant is where the agent is using the resources, thats where it counts toward the program limit, and where it is using the Reponse rating. You dont really believe that an agent is hijacking system resourcets wherever he goes (even if he goes somewhere leaglly) and uploading himself to the node, while he could just be run by the commlink he originated and just interact with the other nodes like every software does, do you? Of course you can do that, to free yourself from the impact on your CPU, if the target nodes allow it (or if the agent hacks the rights to load itself up every time) but you need not. Please show me the part of the rules that say, that the agent has to go wherever the persona goes. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:47 PM
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#185
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, no - in that case, you have an sitting-duck Persona on every System you 'command' your Agent - which you claimed isn't the case for your perfect matrix-skillwire-replacement. Otherwise, like I said, the Agent wouldn't be able to make any defensive rolls for the Persona carrying him, but crashing together with her. Wich basically makes that taktic very stupid.
An independent Agent does that per RAW.
Only a Persona can do that.
Please show me where the rules state that the Agent has a Persona at all. Hint: They don't, but seperate between Persona, Agent, IC, Sprite and Program, especially for the purpose of Cybercombat. To summarize: There is neither a practical application for the Agent Smith scenario, nor is it allways possible to let an Agent subistitute for you Skills. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:52 PM
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#186
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
serbitar, page 227, the apart about using agents clearly (to me atleast) state that eithter the agent is loaded as just another program into the persona or have to be uploaded onto a external node to act independently.
its cant use a node as a home base and roam the matrix. it either has to jump from node to noe, or be surgically attached to a persona... |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:57 PM
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#187
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
If you interpret the rules that way, then Rotbart is right. Especially concerning his last post. Now somebody has to tell me, why you can not run your agent on your commlink and just let it access other nodes but have to load it up to the node it just wants to interact with. This would be completely insane. Its like having to load your browser software onto the apache-server to look at the http content. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:01 PM
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#188
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Obviously - to limit them. Which actually works too well, as long as there is no distinction between subscription and connection.
Do you finally understand why I'm complaining that even with the FAQ, ordering an Agent to search the Matrix creates a definition problem for the dice you roll on the extended test? |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:04 PM
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#189
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
because the rules say so?
sure, there are no "logical" reason why one can not do so... while its not spelled out anywhere, it seems that a independent agent simulates a persona, but does so by running itself on the node its currently interacting with or something like that. it has all the stats of a persona. and it appears to have all the capability's of a persona. but unlike a persona it does not have a home node as its just another program jumping running on the node. hmm, i think i have equaled a agent with a virtual node before. maybe i should have equaled it with a virtual persona :P |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:08 PM
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#190
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's an Icon that is more like a virtual node - it count's a one Program to the Node, but runs multiple Programs on it's own System. AFAIS, you can't directly hack a Persona, but must track back it's datatrail to it's home node. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:09 PM
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#191
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, i personally think once more that the matrix rules are screwed up beyond I dont know. The counter intuitiveness is a monstrosity beyond compare.
As a side note: Would you give your examples a little bit earlier next time and not after I asked for them 3-4 times? Would have helped a lot. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:13 PM
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#192
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
But why the hell can it acces other nodes (meaning interacting with them without being uploaded to the node) when connected to a persona, but it cant do this without a persona and must upload itself. How can agents do searches at all? They need the right to upload themselves. Who in his right mind would give others per default the right to run their programs on their host? INSANE! I think Ill have to take a break or something. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:23 PM
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#193
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, this has been the case in SR3, 2 and 1. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:27 PM
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#194
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
because in the first instance the persona of the hacker acts as a kind of bridge? there have been suspected since as long as i have hanged around dumpshock that the persona is a small bit of program running on the host/node your accessing. also, a agent that keeps uploading itself from machine to machine is being envisioned IRL. yes its a security nightmare, but thats a different story. the best way to secure a node is to take it offline. or if your really paranoid: unplug it from network and power, encase in concrete and depleted uranium. sink it to the bottom of the ocean at its deepest spot. post very well payed naval units over said spot. maybe then can you consider the data on the node secure.
i believe that said statement have been used about SR matrix rules since the days of SR1 (but i have no empirical evidence since i got into it post VR2.0)... |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:31 PM
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#195
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
And this makes it better? |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:35 PM
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#196
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
And you need a sentient being for that bridge? You cant just plug in the agent AI for that? Very mystical . . .
Why isnt the persona using the hosts attributes then (like an uploaded agent), but the commlinks? Once I believed in consistency and streamlining . . . Does anybody know some good yoga or such? I have this twitching in my right arm since your first post in this thread today. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:38 PM
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#197
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
never apply logic to SR rules, it will only lead to insanity.
hmm, come to think of it. chould SR rule books contain parts of the necronomicon? |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:50 PM
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#198
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
The Agent must run on the node for the same reason your persona needs to "enter" it. Hacking the matrix is a 'server-side' not 'client-side' process, essentially.
Shadowrun computers do not work like ours. They work like thirty-decade more advanced versions of what we thought computers would look like seventy years in the future fifteen years ago. So, take 1980's computer technology (and more importantly, poplar cultures knowledge of 1980's computer technology) and "look forward" seventy years to 2050. Now, take the resulting tech, and advance it another 20-years. The Matrix isn't based on Ars Technica whitepapers, it is based on Tron, Neuromancer, and the like. |
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Jan 31 2007, 03:24 PM
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#199
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
It's also worth mentioning that with approximately 2-3 days work from said hacker, he will have cracked the copy protection on all of those programs, including the OS. So every other member of the team only has to pay the 2-3 BP, or maybe one good run's worth of nuyen to have a commlink that's just as good. Really, with how easy it is to copy programs I think it would be easier to just have commlinks cost a little bit more and roll attribute+skill for everything. Programs are barely worth including in the game at this point. Hmmm, that idea may actually be worth some serious consideration. I'll have to think about that. It would definitely be more "streamlined". Maybe keep program names for keeping track of response degredation, but just losing rating and cost. I'm going to stop, I'm spiraling into a wild tangent. |
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Jan 31 2007, 04:09 PM
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#200
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This is not about technology (!!!), this is about consistency. The persona is only interacting with the node, it is not running on the node (I know this for sure, because the persona uses the commlinks attributes, not the nodes it is interacting with). Why does the agent have to RUN on the node to interact with it? And why CAN an agent interact with a node while loaded onto a persona, but CANT when not with a persona? Consistency, not technology! Do it either this way or that, but please be consistent. Yours, Serbitar, spiraling down into madness, LUNACY, INSANITY. |
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