 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 31 2007, 12:38 PM
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#184
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
Thats why the agent is running on the hackers commlink. The presence of the persona is irrelevant, it doesnt do anything anyways, the agent is doing everything. Relevant is where the agent is using the resources, thats where it counts toward the program limit, and where it is using the Reponse rating. You dont really believe that an agent is hijacking system resourcets wherever he goes (even if he goes somewhere leaglly) and uploading himself to the node, while he could just be run by the commlink he originated and just interact with the other nodes like every software does, do you? Of course you can do that, to free yourself from the impact on your CPU, if the target nodes allow it (or if the agent hacks the rights to load itself up every time) but you need not. Please show me the part of the rules that say, that the agent has to go wherever the persona goes. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:47 PM
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#185
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, no - in that case, you have an sitting-duck Persona on every System you 'command' your Agent - which you claimed isn't the case for your perfect matrix-skillwire-replacement. Otherwise, like I said, the Agent wouldn't be able to make any defensive rolls for the Persona carrying him, but crashing together with her. Wich basically makes that taktic very stupid.
An independent Agent does that per RAW.
Only a Persona can do that.
Please show me where the rules state that the Agent has a Persona at all. Hint: They don't, but seperate between Persona, Agent, IC, Sprite and Program, especially for the purpose of Cybercombat. To summarize: There is neither a practical application for the Agent Smith scenario, nor is it allways possible to let an Agent subistitute for you Skills. |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:52 PM
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#186
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
serbitar, page 227, the apart about using agents clearly (to me atleast) state that eithter the agent is loaded as just another program into the persona or have to be uploaded onto a external node to act independently.
its cant use a node as a home base and roam the matrix. it either has to jump from node to noe, or be surgically attached to a persona... |
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Jan 31 2007, 12:57 PM
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#187
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
If you interpret the rules that way, then Rotbart is right. Especially concerning his last post. Now somebody has to tell me, why you can not run your agent on your commlink and just let it access other nodes but have to load it up to the node it just wants to interact with. This would be completely insane. Its like having to load your browser software onto the apache-server to look at the http content. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:01 PM
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#188
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Obviously - to limit them. Which actually works too well, as long as there is no distinction between subscription and connection.
Do you finally understand why I'm complaining that even with the FAQ, ordering an Agent to search the Matrix creates a definition problem for the dice you roll on the extended test? |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:04 PM
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#189
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
because the rules say so?
sure, there are no "logical" reason why one can not do so... while its not spelled out anywhere, it seems that a independent agent simulates a persona, but does so by running itself on the node its currently interacting with or something like that. it has all the stats of a persona. and it appears to have all the capability's of a persona. but unlike a persona it does not have a home node as its just another program jumping running on the node. hmm, i think i have equaled a agent with a virtual node before. maybe i should have equaled it with a virtual persona :P |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:08 PM
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#190
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's an Icon that is more like a virtual node - it count's a one Program to the Node, but runs multiple Programs on it's own System. AFAIS, you can't directly hack a Persona, but must track back it's datatrail to it's home node. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:09 PM
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#191
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, i personally think once more that the matrix rules are screwed up beyond I dont know. The counter intuitiveness is a monstrosity beyond compare.
As a side note: Would you give your examples a little bit earlier next time and not after I asked for them 3-4 times? Would have helped a lot. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:13 PM
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#192
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
But why the hell can it acces other nodes (meaning interacting with them without being uploaded to the node) when connected to a persona, but it cant do this without a persona and must upload itself. How can agents do searches at all? They need the right to upload themselves. Who in his right mind would give others per default the right to run their programs on their host? INSANE! I think Ill have to take a break or something. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:23 PM
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#193
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, this has been the case in SR3, 2 and 1. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:27 PM
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#194
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
because in the first instance the persona of the hacker acts as a kind of bridge? there have been suspected since as long as i have hanged around dumpshock that the persona is a small bit of program running on the host/node your accessing. also, a agent that keeps uploading itself from machine to machine is being envisioned IRL. yes its a security nightmare, but thats a different story. the best way to secure a node is to take it offline. or if your really paranoid: unplug it from network and power, encase in concrete and depleted uranium. sink it to the bottom of the ocean at its deepest spot. post very well payed naval units over said spot. maybe then can you consider the data on the node secure.
i believe that said statement have been used about SR matrix rules since the days of SR1 (but i have no empirical evidence since i got into it post VR2.0)... |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:31 PM
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#195
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
And this makes it better? |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:35 PM
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#196
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
And you need a sentient being for that bridge? You cant just plug in the agent AI for that? Very mystical . . .
Why isnt the persona using the hosts attributes then (like an uploaded agent), but the commlinks? Once I believed in consistency and streamlining . . . Does anybody know some good yoga or such? I have this twitching in my right arm since your first post in this thread today. |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:38 PM
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#197
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
never apply logic to SR rules, it will only lead to insanity.
hmm, come to think of it. chould SR rule books contain parts of the necronomicon? |
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Jan 31 2007, 01:50 PM
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#198
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
The Agent must run on the node for the same reason your persona needs to "enter" it. Hacking the matrix is a 'server-side' not 'client-side' process, essentially.
Shadowrun computers do not work like ours. They work like thirty-decade more advanced versions of what we thought computers would look like seventy years in the future fifteen years ago. So, take 1980's computer technology (and more importantly, poplar cultures knowledge of 1980's computer technology) and "look forward" seventy years to 2050. Now, take the resulting tech, and advance it another 20-years. The Matrix isn't based on Ars Technica whitepapers, it is based on Tron, Neuromancer, and the like. |
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Jan 31 2007, 03:24 PM
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#199
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
It's also worth mentioning that with approximately 2-3 days work from said hacker, he will have cracked the copy protection on all of those programs, including the OS. So every other member of the team only has to pay the 2-3 BP, or maybe one good run's worth of nuyen to have a commlink that's just as good. Really, with how easy it is to copy programs I think it would be easier to just have commlinks cost a little bit more and roll attribute+skill for everything. Programs are barely worth including in the game at this point. Hmmm, that idea may actually be worth some serious consideration. I'll have to think about that. It would definitely be more "streamlined". Maybe keep program names for keeping track of response degredation, but just losing rating and cost. I'm going to stop, I'm spiraling into a wild tangent. |
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Jan 31 2007, 04:09 PM
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#200
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This is not about technology (!!!), this is about consistency. The persona is only interacting with the node, it is not running on the node (I know this for sure, because the persona uses the commlinks attributes, not the nodes it is interacting with). Why does the agent have to RUN on the node to interact with it? And why CAN an agent interact with a node while loaded onto a persona, but CANT when not with a persona? Consistency, not technology! Do it either this way or that, but please be consistent. Yours, Serbitar, spiraling down into madness, LUNACY, INSANITY. |
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Jan 31 2007, 05:23 PM
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#201
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Agent =/= Hacker
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Jan 31 2007, 05:43 PM
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#202
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
But there is a difference between consistency and everything being the same....I am getting the feeling, at least from this thread of posts, that you will only be satisfied with the core rules once every category of things is written out as being the same...its a noble pursuit, but I just don't see that being SR4, to me, at least. You want every node to act the same, every rating to mean the same (e.g. 6/6/6/6 coffee machine being equivalent to a 6/6/6/6 commlink), no difference between a TM and a traditional hacker, no difference between IC v. Agents v. Personas... While I agree with some of your points and efforts to introduce consistency across the board, I don't agree with all of them. I don't understand why you have a great need to have an agent run and act exactly like a persona...in this regard, I prefer the difference between the agents and personas...consistency in this, would be a bad move...again, IMO. |
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Jan 31 2007, 05:44 PM
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#203
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
I'm going to repeat a couple of points that keep getting ignored. One, the hacker or hacker adept is not running better numbers out of the box. IF you have a permissive GM, maybe he is, but oddly, super-commlinks with 6/6/6/6 are one of the few things that actually have an availability code now, same with rating 6 software. If you aren't using those rules in your games, then sure, it's EASY to just get super hardware and software. But the rules are there, and I don't see why a brand new Runner should start with anything he can't get 'off the shelf'. Hardware has an availability 16 for each component. That's sixteen hits on an extended test. Software is gonna be a 12, with a six freaking month interval for system... how many runs can your TM run in a year? If you just randomly decide super systems are available at the stuffer shack then sure, your Technomancer has a balance issue. But then, you aren't using RAW, are you? And why, oh why, do you never rebutt on the threading issue? A Technomancer can get double his CF rating by threading. That makes up for a hell of a lot. |
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Jan 31 2007, 06:41 PM
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#204
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Consistency: x+x = y y+x = z => x+x+x = z x+x != z for all definitions of x Its called logic, It cant be broken, though you have the choice of what to put in for x. |
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Jan 31 2007, 06:53 PM
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#205
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Except 0. :vegm: |
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Jan 31 2007, 06:56 PM
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#206
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, noone is talking about starting with a 6/6/6/6 Commlink. We're talking about a 5/5/6/6 Commlink. See, a Response and Signal of 6 is outside the starting availability. But getting a Rating 6 ine everything else is well within the starting availabilities. So you have a Response 5 and a Signal 5, and a Rating 6 System, Firewall, Attack, Stealth, etc. Why bother? Because it's expensive and difficult to upgrade all that crap to Rating 6 once play has begun, so you might as well have the 6 now even if it just runs at 5 until you get a better Response. Technomancers do that same thing - they start with every Complex Form they are allowed to have at Rating 6 because it's fucking expensive to buy the CFs up to 6 once play starts (6 Karma a piece, fuck that noise!) - we are talking about making characters for the long haul here. And as to inevitable question: Can you really upgrade your Commlink before play starts? Hellz yeah you can! The Sample Hacker on p. 96 of the basic book does exactly that. -Frank |
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Jan 31 2007, 07:05 PM
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#207
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
I'm sorry, but you'll just have todeal with a certain amount of inconsistency...
Agents aren't Hackers. I prefer to look at it as a distinguishing factor, because imho it follows quite logically from the fluff and mechanics of the setting. But more importantly, it keeps the players the stars rather than their equipment. An Agent can not interact remotly with a node because it cannot. I don't know why, and I don't care why. The thing that distinguishes a Hacker from an Agent - and makes the Hacker better - is that the Hacker can use his cyberdeck's ratings, and the Agent is limited to the power of the node. If the Agent is operating alongside its Hacker, then it can work with the commlinks ratings... but the hacker has to be there. Agents aren't Hackers. Hackers can do things Agents can't. Because the hackers are players and the agents are numbers on a sheet. Sometimes we need to do things that distinguish the stars of the story from the background players. Why does Captain Kirk prove immune to the alien mind control, but not Red Shirt #456? Because Kirk is the Big Damn Hero. Why does the Enterprise fly from Venus to Mars in an hour in Episode 12, but take four days in Episode 47? Because the ship moves "at the speed of plot." Why hire a Hacker, instead of buying an Agent? Because your freind Bob's street sammy bought it last game session, and he rolled up a new hacker character. Agents aren't Hackers. Players get to do cool stuff, NPCs don't. |
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Jan 31 2007, 07:39 PM
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#208
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Using the prefigured archetypes to reflect character generation has a long history of not working. I recall that you couldn't make the archetypes in 1st edition using the rules without cheating... a reward for taking a premade character as I recall. Like I've said before, part of your complaint is that TM's spend Karma to upgrade and Hacker's don't. JUST LIKE Mages/Adepts vs. StreetSams... in a debate as old as the game. This doesn't reflect that the hacking rules alone are broken, only that character improvement isn't level between the money geeks and the mana geeks (now resonance geeks...). If you play with a GM who is stingy with the nuyen, making runners fight for beer money, then the karma crowd has an advantage when it comes to improvement. If the GM hands out the cash rewards like candy then it's the gadget freaks who get ahead... Yes, a TM winds up more of a specialist, having to make a few more hard calls in creating his character,but he can compete with even your Hacker Adept with threading and sprites, even out of the box. And if you are talking 'long haul', then you'll prefer the TM, who is uncapped, to the hacker or hacker adept who can start with a maximum dice pool at character creation and never get any better. Damn the karma costs. And if six karma is a lot to you to improve something, I have to wonder what 'improvement' table you've been reading??? To take a skill to level three costs six karma. To take a skill to level 6 costs 18! That's for a single point increase. |
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