 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 31 2007, 08:49 PM
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#209
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
No. I'm aghast that the Technomancers spends ONE THOUSAND KARMA to equal a Hacker Adept shortly after chargen. We aren't talking the arcane mysteries of whether 1.5 million :nuyen: is worth 200 Karma (some games it is, some games it isn't). We're asking ourselves whether ONE THOUSAND KARMA is worth 11k. Righty-o. That's slightly more than one month's rent at high lifestyle vs. ONE THOUSAND KARMA. OK, now are we on the same page? The uncapped nature of the Technomancer does not come into being unto he has amassed a thousand Karma points. I have never heard of any character in any edition ever amassing that many Karma points to rub together. --- So yeah, in the "long run" eventually the Hacker Adept will be good at more things, and the Technomancer will be more of a specialist. That is, the Technomancer will have a dice pool of 16 whle hacking and the Hacker Adept will have a dicepool of only 15. And the Hacker Adept will have spent one thousand Karma on other things. He'll be, for example, a Master Face, because it only costs 170 Karma to go from a Charisma of 1 and no social skills to a Charisma of 6 and an Influence Group of 6. Heck, he'll be a full scale Pornomancer now, because getting himself 3 ranks of Kinesics and a few levels of Improved Ability: Ettiquette only sets him back another 33 Karma. The Technomancer's bulge is:
Really. Stop waving your hands and put up some math. This is grotesquely stacked against the Technomancer at every level of play. Beginning characters, advanced characters, it don't matter - the only good Technomancer is a Technomancer Rigger who doesn't Hack at all and just lets Machine Sprites pilot Steel Lynxes.
Six Karma is a metric ass tonne when you realize that there are 20 Complex Forms. Just to equal the Program Ratings that a Hacker Adept begins play with, you're talking about shilling out 120 Karma - assuming for the moment that you could start play with all 20 CFs. Which you can't. In reality you're only allowed to start with 10 with the TM you put forward - which in turn means that you're actually going to be spending 280 Karma just to equal the Program Ratings that the Hacker began play with - and as previously noted that is more Karma than the Hacker Adept needs to go from a zero start to world-class mastery in a single field. -Frank |
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Jan 31 2007, 09:22 PM
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#210
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Frank...
I know you have to be smoking serious crap with that thousand karma. I know, because I'm a game geek who has sat down and made 'thousand karma characters' for shits and giggles. At a thousand karma you are talking a runner who's got every stat at max, has bought up a few fun advantages and has his top use skills maxed out and is starting to work on other skills just floating in the background. I mean, in the 2k karma challenge on this forum I goofed off and when I hit about 1600 karma I ran out of things to spend it on.. until I made an adept who was initiating.. and I'm not even one of those efficiency nazi's that figure the bp cost of attributes makes them a better buy than skills for Karma.... Never mind the fact that.. and I'm starting to sound like a broken record but you haven't deigned to respond yet, the Threading ability... which is FREE, allows the Technomancer to keep up even with your broke ass adept idea. Never mind the fact that the TM does not NEED 20 Complex forms. Right now your argument is not to dissimilar from someone bitching that adepts are weak compared to sammy's because the sammy can have straight nine in his physical stats at the start and the Adept needs to spend 500 karma to initiate that level of magic to keep up. Never mind what the adept can do that the sammy can only imagine... like doubling his skill pool or multitasking or... Technomancers shouldn't be trying to compete on raw numbers across the board. It's not their strength. They can specialize much better, and if they don't have, they can improvise much better. |
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Jan 31 2007, 09:57 PM
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#211
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Sweet, so I can Thread as a TM for free? So that means all those CF that I would have to buy up with Karma for huge costs I could just raise up when I need them? But wait, what is that you say? I have to resist fading each and every time I do this?
What, there's more? The fading could do physical damage if my CF is threaded above to a rating above my Resonance? So what someone would normally pay for in cash I have to pay with in pain and blood... Oh well, I guess the only good thing about it is the fact that CF's can go above rank 6, even though I have a -2 on all other dicepools for each CF I have threaded... |
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Jan 31 2007, 09:58 PM
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#212
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Did you read the assessment of the characters involved? Let's consider your suggested Technomancer: All 5s in all of his Mental Stats. Resonance 6. 10 Complex Forms at 6. That's about maximized for a starting character. But he's got to compete with a Hacker Adept who is going to have Improved Ability, which is worth 3 dice. And all Programs at 6. For the Technomacer to match that dicepool (15), he needs to raise his Complex Forms to 9. That costs 7+8+9 = 24 Karma on each of the 10 CFs he already has (240 Karma), and 2+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 46 Karma on eahc of the CFs he doesn't already have (460 Karma). And he needs to raise his Mental Stats to 6 at 18 Karma a piece (72 Karma), and he needs to buy his Resonance up to 9, costing 21+24+27 (72) Karma for the Attribute, and 13 + 16 + 19 (48) Karma for the Submergence. And he has to purchase his Electronics and Cracking Groups up to 6 (they start at 4), which costs 55 Karma a piece (for another 110 Karma). That's 240 + 460 + 72 + 72 + 48 + 110 = 1002 Karma Really. I'm not fucking kidding about the 1000 Karma you need to spend just to equal the Hacker Adept. You haven't even taken a single step into the "uncapped" territory that you keep bringing up. --- And yes, I am aware how completely ridiculous it is for any character to spend one thousand Karma on anything. It's just not going to happen. No campaign is going to maintain interest long enough to do that. -Frank |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:02 PM
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#213
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Campaings may not. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:11 PM
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#214
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
You know what he meant. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:13 PM
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#215
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I've seen a few campaigns that have. One of the characters that did was from second edition, and "evolved" into 4th. The other two that lasted that long were from 3rd edition. The campaigns weren't continuos. The characters have been through a number of campaigns/GMs/One Nighters. But it does happen sometimes.
And then of course there's Cash for Karma. I've seen plenty of characters, mostly shaman types taht will take everything from the run except their medium life style costs and throw it in to karma. I don't allwo that in my game ,although I do allow some, because it throws of the balance very quickly. but it does happen. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:14 PM
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#216
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Honestly, no - I don't. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:21 PM
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#217
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
OK ok, ill add y != z |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:25 PM
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#218
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Unnaceptable for me. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:30 PM
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#219
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Well, that is the realm of personal preference, not an argument to force a RAW change on everyone else. I like consistency more than the average guy, but its not as much fun if everything is the same. There needs to be some variety to keep things interesting... I am also in the camp that players get to do cool stuff and NPCs don't...the game is for the players and GM to have fun...while some groups seems to want to pit the players against the GM, I just don't think that is the intended spirit of roleplaying games. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:32 PM
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#220
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This is a forced, illogic rule that need not be that way. It is inconsistent, it is counterintuitive, it is anti streamlining, it is introducing problems, it is unrealistic, it can not be described in game by any means, nobody would or could design a system that workds that way. Are there any more reasons that you can have against a rule? |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:38 PM
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#221
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
There are 22 programs by my count; Technomancers can not use Medic, and they get Biofeedback Filter for free.
A Hacker, who for some reason begins play without programs, needs to spend ¥94,200 to get all 22 at Rating 6. A Technomancer, who for some reason begins play without CF's, needs to spend 440 Karma to get all 20 at Rating 6. Is one point of karma worth 215 nuyen? |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:40 PM
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#222
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I am not arguing that you have a problem with the "agent rule" of not allowing one independently on your own comm... I KNOW you have a problem with it:) I'm just saying that I don't, and like the way agents != persona... |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:49 PM
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#223
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
So you like to sacrifice explainability, intuitivity, consistency, reality, less problems and more for this?
You know, in my SGM, agent rules are very easy. It works exactly like a hacker, but substitutes every skill and attribute with its rating. You dont need extra rules at all. Its just working. And because agents cant specialize, cant have edge and cant get logic 9+ or additional cyberware, it isnt even a problem. It is intuitive, it is consistent, it is easily explainable, it is realistic, it doesnt make problems, it doesnt destroy your gaming reality, it is not forced but comes quite naturally. So why do we need this forced system? Some people tell me that RAW is working. Thats true. Everything is working. If you made no rules and wrote "let the GM decide everythign" this would work. But still, isnt the popurse of rules to provide the best possible solution if something wasnt decided by the GM? |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:51 PM
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#224
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Serbitar, this particular sub-topic might also have something to do with your bias against the grunt rules. You always seem to oppose any attempt to "simplify" NPCs. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:57 PM
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#225
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Wow...I know some whiz players that wish they could get karma that cheaply. Hmm...SRM4 #1 Parliament of Thieves, Table Rating 0 (0-9 Karma) The pay is 2500, or 1750 if you deliver the package late. That'd be 11 karma if you cashed it all in or 8 if you delivered it late. Initiate after one delivery run. Not bad. |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:12 PM
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#226
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
He doesn't need to match the adept's permanent dice to match his pool. IF for some reason he needs to get his CF to 9 (say, for the purposes of competeing with your adept) he threads. Threading for three successes isn't a brutal, soul destroying process. Consider this: Mr 'I need a nine' rolls ELEVEN dice to resist three boxes of stun. Now, he's got the -2 penalty do deal with, so he hands it off to the closest sprite to hold onto while he does his task, then takes it back. He's still rolling with a net gain of one even if he only kept the +3 dice. Stun DV of 3!!! Oh MY! Totally wrecked him, yessir... he's useless, yup yup. Now, for the same reason I suggest that no TM is going to want to have all his CF's, certainly not to 6 or more. He doesn't need 'em. Many of the programs are marginal utility programs, crap he doesn't need all that often. When he does need it, he threads it for the application or tasks a sprite to do it. Does he really need "track"? Probably not, and if he does, he's still got it, it's just not his 'go to' program. What about Encryption? Or Reality Filter? What rating does it need? 6? WTF??? When you take a practial look at the list of programs you'll see a lot of stuff that just doesn't get rolled that often. Some of what does get rolled is still optional. Do you need both black hammer and blackout? Decide if you want lethal or nonlethal combat as a default. Hell, unless he's planning to run your drones for you, he doesn't want ECCM much either... Like I just said, trying to run a TM on a one for one comparison is like the age old adept/sammy debate. They do some stuff the same, some stuff different. If your Technomancers AREN"T threading every run, that's your fault, not the games. Same thing if he doesn't have a small army of sprites at his beck and call. I can't think of one good reason why a TM should start any run without capping out on registered sprites, and maybe calling up a few unregistered to take on the easy work... Just so you know, I'm not trying to argue an extreme point here. We both agree that Technomancers are overly costly for what they can do. We just have a strong disagreement over 'how much'. |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:30 PM
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#227
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
You are wrong about one thing, Spike. The Fading damage is PHYSICAL because the CF is being raised above the TM's Resonance of 6. 9>6=physical fading.
Physical fading IS a big thing, even if you have a huge dicepool, just for the fact that you might not soak it all or glitch and have 3P damage+ whatever the GM throws at you. Putting the 3P aside, what about all the other CFs that the TM couldnt buy at CharGen? Are you suggesting that a TM with a 10 dicepool for threading (4 software + 6 resonance) can reliably get 9 hits? Then after getting those 9 hits, you think the TM can reliably soak 9P Fading with that 11 Will+Res dicepool? |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:33 PM
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#228
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What scares me the second most in this thread is that, although TMs are so obiously, extremely uncureably underwpoered, there are still people who are ignorant of this fact and actually argue against this.
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Jan 31 2007, 11:49 PM
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#229
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
New people, specifically. People who we should be kind to and welcoming. People who we WANT to have posting their opinions and contributing to discussions, remember? |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:51 PM
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#230
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I still see no problem with correcting wrong statements even if they are new. You just cant flame them, per forum standards. |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:00 AM
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#231
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
So, Serbitar... when do your publsihing company release its game?
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Feb 1 2007, 12:03 AM
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#232
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Which one?
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Feb 1 2007, 12:06 AM
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#233
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Until the Resonance Pools (Power Focus), Sprite Icons (Summoning or Binding focus), TM Tribes (Initiatory groups), etc... start to get released. Ugh a Threading Focus would be Brutal (yes with a capital B). |
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