 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 31 2007, 10:21 PM
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#217
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
OK ok, ill add y != z |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:25 PM
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#218
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Unnaceptable for me. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:30 PM
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#219
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Well, that is the realm of personal preference, not an argument to force a RAW change on everyone else. I like consistency more than the average guy, but its not as much fun if everything is the same. There needs to be some variety to keep things interesting... I am also in the camp that players get to do cool stuff and NPCs don't...the game is for the players and GM to have fun...while some groups seems to want to pit the players against the GM, I just don't think that is the intended spirit of roleplaying games. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:32 PM
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#220
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This is a forced, illogic rule that need not be that way. It is inconsistent, it is counterintuitive, it is anti streamlining, it is introducing problems, it is unrealistic, it can not be described in game by any means, nobody would or could design a system that workds that way. Are there any more reasons that you can have against a rule? |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:38 PM
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#221
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
There are 22 programs by my count; Technomancers can not use Medic, and they get Biofeedback Filter for free.
A Hacker, who for some reason begins play without programs, needs to spend ¥94,200 to get all 22 at Rating 6. A Technomancer, who for some reason begins play without CF's, needs to spend 440 Karma to get all 20 at Rating 6. Is one point of karma worth 215 nuyen? |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:40 PM
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#222
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I am not arguing that you have a problem with the "agent rule" of not allowing one independently on your own comm... I KNOW you have a problem with it:) I'm just saying that I don't, and like the way agents != persona... |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:49 PM
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#223
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
So you like to sacrifice explainability, intuitivity, consistency, reality, less problems and more for this?
You know, in my SGM, agent rules are very easy. It works exactly like a hacker, but substitutes every skill and attribute with its rating. You dont need extra rules at all. Its just working. And because agents cant specialize, cant have edge and cant get logic 9+ or additional cyberware, it isnt even a problem. It is intuitive, it is consistent, it is easily explainable, it is realistic, it doesnt make problems, it doesnt destroy your gaming reality, it is not forced but comes quite naturally. So why do we need this forced system? Some people tell me that RAW is working. Thats true. Everything is working. If you made no rules and wrote "let the GM decide everythign" this would work. But still, isnt the popurse of rules to provide the best possible solution if something wasnt decided by the GM? |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:51 PM
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#224
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Serbitar, this particular sub-topic might also have something to do with your bias against the grunt rules. You always seem to oppose any attempt to "simplify" NPCs. |
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Jan 31 2007, 10:57 PM
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#225
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Wow...I know some whiz players that wish they could get karma that cheaply. Hmm...SRM4 #1 Parliament of Thieves, Table Rating 0 (0-9 Karma) The pay is 2500, or 1750 if you deliver the package late. That'd be 11 karma if you cashed it all in or 8 if you delivered it late. Initiate after one delivery run. Not bad. |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:12 PM
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#226
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
He doesn't need to match the adept's permanent dice to match his pool. IF for some reason he needs to get his CF to 9 (say, for the purposes of competeing with your adept) he threads. Threading for three successes isn't a brutal, soul destroying process. Consider this: Mr 'I need a nine' rolls ELEVEN dice to resist three boxes of stun. Now, he's got the -2 penalty do deal with, so he hands it off to the closest sprite to hold onto while he does his task, then takes it back. He's still rolling with a net gain of one even if he only kept the +3 dice. Stun DV of 3!!! Oh MY! Totally wrecked him, yessir... he's useless, yup yup. Now, for the same reason I suggest that no TM is going to want to have all his CF's, certainly not to 6 or more. He doesn't need 'em. Many of the programs are marginal utility programs, crap he doesn't need all that often. When he does need it, he threads it for the application or tasks a sprite to do it. Does he really need "track"? Probably not, and if he does, he's still got it, it's just not his 'go to' program. What about Encryption? Or Reality Filter? What rating does it need? 6? WTF??? When you take a practial look at the list of programs you'll see a lot of stuff that just doesn't get rolled that often. Some of what does get rolled is still optional. Do you need both black hammer and blackout? Decide if you want lethal or nonlethal combat as a default. Hell, unless he's planning to run your drones for you, he doesn't want ECCM much either... Like I just said, trying to run a TM on a one for one comparison is like the age old adept/sammy debate. They do some stuff the same, some stuff different. If your Technomancers AREN"T threading every run, that's your fault, not the games. Same thing if he doesn't have a small army of sprites at his beck and call. I can't think of one good reason why a TM should start any run without capping out on registered sprites, and maybe calling up a few unregistered to take on the easy work... Just so you know, I'm not trying to argue an extreme point here. We both agree that Technomancers are overly costly for what they can do. We just have a strong disagreement over 'how much'. |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:30 PM
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#227
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
You are wrong about one thing, Spike. The Fading damage is PHYSICAL because the CF is being raised above the TM's Resonance of 6. 9>6=physical fading.
Physical fading IS a big thing, even if you have a huge dicepool, just for the fact that you might not soak it all or glitch and have 3P damage+ whatever the GM throws at you. Putting the 3P aside, what about all the other CFs that the TM couldnt buy at CharGen? Are you suggesting that a TM with a 10 dicepool for threading (4 software + 6 resonance) can reliably get 9 hits? Then after getting those 9 hits, you think the TM can reliably soak 9P Fading with that 11 Will+Res dicepool? |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:33 PM
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#228
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What scares me the second most in this thread is that, although TMs are so obiously, extremely uncureably underwpoered, there are still people who are ignorant of this fact and actually argue against this.
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Jan 31 2007, 11:49 PM
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#229
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
New people, specifically. People who we should be kind to and welcoming. People who we WANT to have posting their opinions and contributing to discussions, remember? |
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Jan 31 2007, 11:51 PM
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#230
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I still see no problem with correcting wrong statements even if they are new. You just cant flame them, per forum standards. |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:00 AM
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#231
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
So, Serbitar... when do your publsihing company release its game?
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Feb 1 2007, 12:03 AM
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#232
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Which one?
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Feb 1 2007, 12:06 AM
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#233
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Until the Resonance Pools (Power Focus), Sprite Icons (Summoning or Binding focus), TM Tribes (Initiatory groups), etc... start to get released. Ugh a Threading Focus would be Brutal (yes with a capital B). |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:10 AM
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#234
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Yeah, that will really help the TM to spend some karma. Hes got tons of it anyways.
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Feb 1 2007, 12:23 AM
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#235
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Konsaki: 11 dice provides an average of 3.66 hits per throw. Yes he might glitch.
My apologies for the incorrect type of drain. However, you missed my point, the Technomancer has resources available to him that the hacker and hacker adept do not that IN PART make up for the costliness of his abilities in Karma. I've never argued that they were not overpriced, I merely argued that it is not nearly as bad as Frank and others suggest. I could make the obvious point that none of the pregenerated archtypes are anywhere near this specialized, so we are essentially arguing extreme cases, but I'd gather I'd see another four or five posts suggesting I'm an idiot, so I'll leave it be. As for needing every CF up to 9, again, what are you doing? Not reading my posts, obviously. First you have your redunant programs... pick one and leave the other alone. You may chose neither if your TM choses to not attack personas (for whatever reason... Then there are the various utility programs that typically involve no rolls, or such low rolls as to not be important. Do you really need Command: Door? If you do, compile a machine sprite to 6. In fact, a lot of CF's can be replaced by sprites. You could even argue that if a sprite has the CF then the TM doesn't need it at all, but that's pushing things. Do you REALLY want to rely on a fault sprite to protect you in matrix combat? What about Data Bomb? There are a good handfull of programs that sound more like stuff the corps use on runners. Track is one, sure the TM could use track from time to time, especially once the johnson screws him over, but ten to one the johnson isn't a fellow hacker, and a threaded CF of 3 is fine for that. Or would it help if I made a list of programs that the TM doesn't need? So. The Technomancer has his feild and the hacker has his. Of course, talking about sprites leads us into the Agent debate, which I've tried to steer clear of so far... |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:33 AM
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#236
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, Sprites are beautiful.
They don't care about Response limits, they are always limited in number and if your GM is mean, you can't have a registered Sprite with a rating higher than 8 due to time limits for binding. That doesn't make them balanced, as a horde of Rating 8 Sprites will devastate any System, but it makes them quite easy to keep track of. |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:35 AM
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#237
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
It would however make his karma spending more efficient since the TM version of the magic items applies to multiple rolls instead of just 1. There's a reason why Power foci have high enough availability that you can only start with it at 2 other than fluff reasons... |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:44 AM
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#238
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Wow. I have to say that these arguments are nothing if not eloquent. I'm honestly not sure which side of the line I fall on for most of them since every counter arguement seems to sway me one way or the other.
One thing I can't agree with yet, despite the mathematics, is that TMs are weak. I've had two campaigns now where TMs have trumped everything I tried to throw at them by threading Stealth as necessary. I understand that TMs tend to have less dice to roll than hackers -- which is the comparison which Frank has been making -- but I don't agree that this directly correlates to their effectiveness since a TM's effectiveness is based mostly in the creativity of the player and said character's ability to resist drain ... err ... fading. Anyway, my real reason for posting here is to let you all know that I'm finding this thoroughly engrossing and hope that, in the end, some resolution might be found. Oh, and so that I can find where I left off tomorrow! |
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Feb 1 2007, 12:54 AM
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#239
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Spike, while I agree that TM's have sprites that can do almost everything for a TM, it does get a little disheartening to have a pet perform all your tasks for you. It would be like having a mage/shaman just summon only spirits to perform any spell he needs verses casting it himself. Yes, going off the beaten path right there, but whatever, you get my drift I hope.
Threading IS very useful for those programs that dont use that often, but it shouldnt be mandatory to thread just because you cant afford a CF due to being a Karma drain. Threading should be an option, just like summoning sprites or spirits. All the TM abilities were added to make the TM archtype a workable character, but even so, I wish they were balanced a little better. |
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Feb 1 2007, 01:03 AM
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#240
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The solutions are already there. TMs buy CFs like spells (5 Karma, w00t, streamlining) at Resonance rating. Fixes everything (well, not the "TMs can have unlimited sprite services") but mostly everything else. TMS are now comparable to hackers, for short durations even better, but this is balanced due to the fact that they totally suck at everything else and cant have cyberware. |
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Feb 1 2007, 01:07 AM
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#241
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
God help me... I agree with Serbitar! Although, I'd bump it to 6 Karma, as Technomancers do not need to spend Nuyen to purchase formula, nor do they need to pay an instructor. Of course, I also don't think Technomancers are weak, and am perfectly happy with them as is. |
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