 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 28 2007, 07:16 PM
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#51
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Hoppelhäschen 5000  Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951  |
You obviously must own a different version of SR4, then. |
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Jan 28 2007, 08:35 PM
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#52
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That intent may exist, but it's not explicitly stated, and implementing that would be completely fucking broken. So I don't particularly care. Basically Serbitar, you are coming from the standpoint of insisting that the Agent Smith Problem is a reality and unstoppable tactic, and then confronting alternate interpretations on the grounds that they don't allow the Agent Smith Problem to overrun the world. I can't understand why you would want to do that. -- Yes, I freely grant that if you allow people to run an arbitrary number of Agents then the game is completely broken. Traces overrun all stealth instantly, unlimited IC comes to kill player characters, and Administrator Access is granted to any Hacker in one round. Right, we acknowledge this. But it's predicated on the idea that you can run an unlimited number of Agents just by having an unlimited number of commlinks duct taped together. And that's not a given under the RAW of the SR4 rulebook. It's broken, it's dumb, it'd unnecessary, and I have no idea why you cling to this notion like grim death. -Frank |
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Jan 28 2007, 08:51 PM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
This tells us that an agent CAN run independantly with pre-set tasks even if the owning personna is offline. What is stopping a hacker from performing the agent smith scene? The fact that the target node will notice and shut down to protect itself. |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:02 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
So do your hackers go on every run with 1000 drones fighting by the hacker's side? Or even instead of the hacker? It's the same concept. |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:07 PM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Because agents that work like this are a reality. Agents have pseudo intelligence by themselves, they are designed to work independently. In 2070 we will have them (in realityeven sooner). And any matrix rules worth their salt will have to find a way to cope with them. At least thats what I am trying to do. |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:08 PM
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#56
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
If the only defense against a Denial of Service Attack is shutting down, then Hackers have already won.
How they work is fluff, not game mechanics. Honestly, what's going on in "reality" isn't even important from a game mechanical perspective because there's a VR overlay.
I favor "abstracting the number of specific programs and the amount of processing power being used" myself. Sure, an "exploit" program probably involves having thousands or millions of separate tasks each figuring a way into your system - that's why it works at all. But allowing someone two attempts because they have "two thousands or millions of separate tasks" running is obviously crazy talk. That way lies madness. -Frank |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:10 PM
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#57
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Agents make bad hackers.
As they are limited to the ratings of the node they run on, they are just as good as the ICs running on it. Which basically means, instead of rolling dice, you can toss a coin. |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:13 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, as per RAW you just hack in with admin rights (which is quite easy even with the best nodes) and then nobody can stop you anyways. . .
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Jan 28 2007, 09:20 PM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Ok, lets rephrase it: Matrix rules in a Shadowrun universe are expected to contain independently acting semi intelligent software entities (with regard to whatever abstraction layer the rules are working on) that are essentially hackers in a box, because they have been there in older editions and because they will be there in reality. The power of these entities can be seen by looking at todays viruses, worms and trojans, which are in principle, very very dumb agents. Thats why matrix rules worth their salt will have to deal with them and to balance them. There are ways: One is to say that certain actions do not get easier, or even get harder, when lots of agents/people are doing them at thesame time (like I do in my rules with perception and hacking). Another is to say that some actions will be performed in exactly the same way by each agent so that the result for 1 agent is exactly the same as for 10 agents as there is no "randomness" (an example would be tracing). I think that this is the way to go. But thats just my opinion (and I obviously like it because it is my idea). @Rotbart: That works for Agent vs IC combat. But what about tracing, data search and other things that Frank is talking about? |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:37 PM
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#60
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's all very circular though. You look at things one way and then demand that the rules also look at them the same way to be worth anything because that's how things are being looked at - but one could just as easily look at things another way and handle them differently as befits the different perspective.
If you treated every single copy of an Agent exactly the same way as a copy of a Persona in a different node, that particular proble would vanish. You'd simply treat the Agent as having a System equal to its rating and set it free along the tides of the Matrix, free to exist in ultiple nodes yet only actually acting in one per combat phase. And that would be fine. Of course, you'd still have characters with effectively limitless Medic Actions and passive scanning, tracing, and encryption good enough that the effectiveness of characters would far exceed what most people would regard as reasonable (as well as virtually excluding anything but Black IC from seriously impacting PCs. Limits on organizational effectiveness are far superior, since a limit on Agent Identity simply translates the Agent Smith Problem into a factor of wallet size. That is, a brand new Agent is really quite affordable, so the limit of one action per Agent identity is still functionally meaningless in the large bank account scenario. -Frank |
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Jan 28 2007, 09:49 PM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Yes it is. I say: A) "I want agents" (the way I defined them above). And I say B) "I want a working matrix system, that makes both hacking and defending against hacking possible". If you disregard either A) or B) my reasoning is not appropriate any more. But matrix RAW has even more severe problems: - even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker - ruling everything with admin access - nonexistant baseline - extremely underpowered TMs - AR-VR problems - physically driving / rigging problems (see active drone thread) - device ratings - encryption - and more At the moment we are not having problems with agents, we are having problems with basic rules. At the moment, matrix RAW is only playable by turning your brain off and hope that your GM will fix it somehow, or playin an extremely casual rail road style way. Very bad in a player vs environment setting like Shadowrun. |
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Jan 28 2007, 10:15 PM
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#62
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
IIRC, both happen node-by-node, too... in which case, Agents are randomly useless. |
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Jan 28 2007, 11:34 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 30-December 06 Member No.: 10,493 |
Frank, that was a wonderful use of ubiquitous computing theory to justify a hacking system based on game balance rather than pure realism.
Now I can even [almost] understand why encryption is so damn' awful in SR4, because it's all using wirelessly broadcasted public keys to access data at arbitrary external adresses. And, of course, hidden mode just means you're using Tor. |
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Jan 28 2007, 11:49 PM
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#64
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..please, don't mind me - I'm going to scream a while. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:39 AM
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#65
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yeah. But a lot of those problems are fundamentally cost/benefit problems that could be solved by tweaking numbers up or down. The Agent Smith Problem is a conceptual one in which your very idea of what the Matrix is like is causing it to break. Technomancers are weak and unplayably inferior because the costs for their powers are so much higher than what those abilities are apparently worth according to equivalent character types that there's nothing nice to say about them. But the concept is salvageable. And quite easily. You just decrease the costs or increase the powers and move on. But your concept of the Agent - where it provides the benefits of an acting Hacker independently of the limitations of your character or system - that's not salvageable. The very idea is broken a priori. It doesn't matter what its stats are, or how much it costs, the fact is that it uses a quantity (money) that actual actors in the setting (corporations) have essentially limitless quantities of - and uses that to get a cumulative benefit that is used in opposed conflicts.
I cannot accept your demands because that cannot be made balanced. Your second demand is negated by your first, because your first demand rewards people for keeping track of arbitrarily large numbers of independent variables. Let's consider the core difficulty in your definition of an Agent:
That's insoluable. Why? Because no possible limit can exist for how many boxes one character could use or own. Since each one is independent, and each one is self-contained within its box, the only limitation is purchasing the boxes. Essentially, you've simply taken for granted that Agents should be equivalent to Mercenary Soldiers for hacking. And further, that unlike Mercenaries (who must be fed, supplied, transported, and smuggled), that these Agents should be available in limitless quantities stored in a virtual medium that is essentially undectable and eminently transportable. Sorry. No can do. Your idea is incompatible with a system that is balanced or even playable. An unlimited number of Agents neccessarily requires an unlimited number of die rolls to resolve. That can't function within the context of a role playing game. You can't resolve the actions of such a scenario. So you need to accept a different level of abstraction or you need to accept a computer system that you don't find "realistic" - because your ideal level of absatraction and ideal level of realism apparently involves people rolling dice to simulate each and every subunit of a multi-thousand unit parallel processor every time they do anything. That's just not reasonable. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:20 AM
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#66
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Thanks for letting us know that the Matrix in every Edition was broken. It's amazing how you completely fail to get the RAW, though, babbling about how System limits Programs by being the limit of simultaneous connections being handled... which are to completely different things: While the first is about how running more Programs than System degrades your Response, the second is about having not more than Systemx2 active connections. That your world of distributed processing power is not even remotely compatible with the way SR4 describes hardware ratings and upgrading them - no problem. Agents not running on your System are either in active or passive Subscription: In the first case, they count towards your Subscription limit... which is Systemx2. In the latter, they are limited to the orders they have... which is not exactly gamebreaking either, considering that they are neither sapient nor having a Persona. Wich means that they can't be at more than one Node at a time and do more than things on that Node... while being limited to the ratings of that Node. Oh, and for the record of keeping people from whining how weak TMs are - there is nothing more broken than a rating 8 Sprite. |
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Jan 29 2007, 12:58 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker An Agent is a "hacker in a box," and at best have a Pilot 6 (¥18,000) and any given Hacking program of 6 (¥6,000). Where as a flesh-and-blood hacker should be throwing 14+ dice after their first few runs. Yes, a ¥24,000+ Agent is better than an average starting Hacker. But any Hacker of moderate experience will own it. - ruling everything with admin access Admin access has control over everything in a system. This is what administrators do... Getting admin access illicitly is what hackers do. Can you say "Got Root?" - nonexistant baseline
- extremely underpowered TMs Threading. Sprites. Deep Resonance. Who needs Emergence? - AR-VR problems Does not compute. - physically driving / rigging problems (see active drone thread) Does not compute. - device ratings Page 214, for the twelfth bloody time... there is a big green box. They go from 1 to 6, just like everything else in the game. Have a look at the big green box or ask the guy sitting behind the cardboard screen at the end of the table. Y'know, the gamemaster. - encryption Umm... p. 225, first column, ninth full paragraph: "Encryption and Decryption" p. 226, first column, eighth full paragraph: "Encryption" p. 225, first column, fourth full paragraph: "Decrypt" |
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Jan 29 2007, 01:17 PM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
?? moderate experience? Whats are you talking about? 6/6 is the maximum a hacker will ever get in RAW +2 dice from VR + maybe some spespecialisationsr some programs. Are these +2 dice (and thats only a maxed hacker) worth hiring a hacker instead of just looking over your agents should and instructing it what to do, while it hacks everything for you?
So what? It still should not be so easy to hack into a system. A maxed 6/6/6/6 host (and that is as good as it gets) has a chance of about 16% to find a hacker that is hacking in the long way for admin access. And then, thats it. And if you dont succeed, try again next week. The hack in System of RAW is extremely un-flexible and an all-or-nothing thing.
SAM: Hey hacker can you hack in there? Hacker: No idea, ill have to ask my GM first. SAM: Havent you hacked into something like this before? Hacker: Yes, but that was with a different GM. Explanation: Concerning Real life tasks (like Jumping) we dont need exact baselines, because everybody knows what a human can approximately do (though they even give rules for jumping). Concerning the Matrix, we do NOT have a real life, day to day experience baseline. Actually things could be like this or completely different. Without rules, a hacker knows exactly nothing about how hard it is to do this and that, while a Sam definitely knows how hard it would be to jump 10 meters. Thats why you need a baseline.
Fine. Do the math (did you do it?). Youll find that a TM needs about 300-500 Karma to be as good a s a starting hacker. Very balanced.
AR people being faster than VR people, even though fluff say something different.
Well, then read the thread again.
THINK first, then post. I know about the ratings. And the ratings are the problem. Why buy a comlink when you have an all rating 6 credstick just sitting next to you? Please tell me that!
Come on. You want to tell me that you are not aware of the encryption problem and want to discuss with me? Please come again when you know what you are talking about. From all your answers I read that you have not even taken the time to get into the topic. I treat that as a personal insult. I am getting really angry when I have to read such smart ass posts. Its not like I am making things up to annoy other people. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:07 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
A Hacker is sentient, and capable of making decisions. An Agent is a program, and can not improvise. The Hacker can also have a Program 6, Skill 8 (because specialties are cheap karma), Codeslinger +2, Hot-Sim bonus +2, and Edge +1-9. That is, potentially, 19-27 dice. ------------ Probing the target takes hours. With average die rolls, hacking an Admin account into a fully secured system should take all damn night, and only if your a pretty good hacker to begin with. Remember, the Hacker is typically acting solo. If he is pounced on by two Black IC, he is now fighting for his life (physical damage) against two opponents of comparable skill. If the Street Samurai were to face two equal opponents, solo, he would face the very real possibility of death. However, the structure of the game is such that the Sam very rarely has such an encounter... The Hacker faces it every time they trip the alarms on a secured system. (Heck, its probably more like 2-4 Black IC and a Security Hacker). Thus, the system is skewed a little in the Hackers favor. High Stealth, high spoof, and a high exploit... not too much different than the meat-world Adept with maximized Infiltration skills. If probing the target is a real problem for your campaign, stop letting your players have a week to do it. Have Johnson's with deadlines measured in hours, not days. ------------ Sam: Hey hacker can you hack in there? Hacker: Hmm... I hacked into a similar system last week, didn't I? GM: Yeah, the Wal-Mart Net was pretty similar to the K-Mart Net, near as you can figure. Hacker: That's what I thought. Yeah, I should be able to do it. Sam: Cool. Explanation: Consistency. ------------ A rating 4-6 program costs (Rating x ¥1,000)... A Complex Form costs 1 BP per rating point. So at Character Generation, a program is 1/5 the cost of a Complex Form. Did you really think the developers were ignorant of this? That no one did the math except yourself? Technomancers can create new programs on the fly, or pump existing complex forms through the roof with a single die roll. Threading is ungodly potent. Finally, CF's are cheap to advance with karma, advancing faster than active skills and new ones being acquired for less karma. As both Technomancers and Hackers need to improve the same active skills, the real difference is between the rate of karma acquisition and nuyen acquisition. True, the Technomancer splits his karma between skills and CFs, while the Hacker only needs to spend karma on skills. But, the hacker is going to begin to lag behind in improving his programs... Unless you typically hand out ¥6,000 per player per session. ------------ Rigging is superior is AR driving with Wired Reflexes. Yeah, the other guy might have 4IP's to your 3IPs... If he was glutton for punishment enough to buy Wired 3. But you have more skill, a bonus, and a lot more cash to spend pumping your vehicles stats. Plus... your not in the damned thing when it blows up. He is. ------------ A credstick is not a commlink, don't be so deliberately obtuse. ------------ No, I am not "aware of the encryption problem," I know that you think there is a problem with the system, but I do not see one. IIRC, you take issue with the fact that a Hacker can crack most encryption in a few combat turns, at the outside, no? I seem to recall a certain Hacker (and his agent in a box) cutting through incredible amounts of encryption in under an hour in Neuromancer... and the computers of 2070 are, without a doubt, better than the tech used in that book. Decrypt 6 + Response 6 = 12 (Encryption 6 x 2) = 12 At 3.96 hits on average, it will take 3.03 rounds for the Hacker to break into a Encryption 6 file. Then he has to handle the IC. Then he needs to be able to understand the contents of the file. Anything worth hiding in an Encrypt 6 file is worth writing in code too. "The umbrellas will arrive in Uganda tonight. Eagle has the football. Your mother is worried about the cat." Is absolutely meaningless to anyone not aware of the code.
I've read this thread, I've read your arguments. I've read other threads, I've read your other arguments. I've read the rulebook. My interpretation of SR4 (and likely other systems) differs from yours... Primarily, it seems, on two fronts: - I believe in the gamemaster - I believe the developers knew what they were doing making adepts/samurai, hackers/technomancers, mages/mundanes, and riggers/non-riggers all capable of similar ends, by different methods, with different strengths and weaknesses. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:52 PM
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#70
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
I'm playing Shadowrun.
Shadowrun has the Matrix. There's this "Agent Smith" scenario. Either: The Matrix is there and working because "something" prevents the "Agent Smith" scenario from taking it down. OR The Matrix is there and working because no one has bothered to initiate the "Agent Smith" scenario yet. Personally I prefer the "something" approach. Personally I don't need to know what "something" is. I'm not going to worry about it. If a PC want's to try and start the "Agent Smith" scenario, it's just not going to work, maybe there'll be a VR cow from space. |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:14 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Agents: Typically a maxed hacker has 14 dice, a maxed agent 12. Everything else is special situations and edge, which are not the norm. Furthermore, you can directly steer an agent and just let it roll the dice, beut tell it every step. Thus, intelligence is irrelevant. A rating 6 agent is essentially a rating 6 skillwire for hacking (though in the real world skillwires exist only up to 4, maybe they had a reason for that). So agents are comparable to maxed hackers. That is a problem. Probing: Probing target takes hours yes. But 99% of the time you have this time. Hacking in on the fly is for security devices like cameras and so on. Probing is for full blown matrix hosts. Making hacking in with admin access as easy as hacking in with user access will lead to hackers always hacking in with admin access (why shouldnt they?) reducing hacking to this one dice roll. Concerning baseline: So you will always have to rely on remote playing your hacker by the GM? Without a baseline you will have to wait till you played through everything there is (and thus have communicated the baseline from the GM to you). How would your Sam have liked it to ask the GM "And how hard is this" for everything he does? The lacking baseline is one, if not the most complained problem. Just use the search. Again: I am not inventing this. TMs: OK, short version: A hacker gets everything there is for 130k at chargen, with the exception of rating 6 agents and rating 6 system. This he can get after the first 1-2 runs. Then he is maxed stuff-wise. He does not have to spend anything. A TM needs about 500 Karma to get all his mental stats and all available Complex forms at Rating 6.
YES! Furthermore: A TM might have sprites (which are not better than agents with unlimited services) and might have threading. But he totally sucks in the real world. While a TM spends his first 100 Karma to at least get some CFs and does God knows with his money, the Hacker is on his way to become a Sam or something else, because he almost starts maxed in his field. TMs are severely, totally and extremely underpowered. This was discussed numerous times on this board an proven mathematically. Consider it a fact. Concerning VR Rigging- AR: You get enough benefit for Wired. Wired should not be the give-all and be-all. At the moment it is. You rule in AR hacking, AR Rigging and Real world. Fluff wise as well as balance wise, thats just wrong. Ratings: A credstick is a device. Every device is a node, every node can be used to run programs. The only thing hat a credstick dosent have are all the goodies like a camera and so on. Want proof?:
All Matrix enabled devices have Access management:
So every matrix enabled thing is a node:
Conclusion: Everything in SR is a node and can run programs. No need to buy a comlink if you have credsticks lying around. Encryption: Well, if it is no problem for you to break even the hardest encrpytion in 9 Seconds, then why bother with encryption rules at all? For 9 Seconds? Furthermore: Have fun making your world remotely realistic with no encrpytion. Better get some hard currency fast!
SR4 is Player vs Setting. The players are trying to beat a setting (thats what they do in a normal run). If they have to ask the GM for everything thats not going to work. SR is not a fantasy railroad game.
The developers are only humans. And for my taste they dont use enough math when making rules. How many mathematicians and statisticians are with the developers?
Concerning the topics discussed now, I gave no arguments. I just mentioned the issues. I gave the arguments in about two dozen threads during the last 1-2 years. |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:40 PM
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#72
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ok kids, had your fun?
how about we all wait with final judgment on the matrix rules until unwired is out? |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:44 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Okay, I am offically going to bow out of this now. Serbitar's style of play is clearly incompatable with mine. I don't expect the rules to cover everything, nor can I get past his far to strict literal interpertation of the written text. (Credsticks have access, nodes are acessed, thus credsticks are cyberdecks. WTF?)
But, fundamentally, the differnce is very clear... and likely insurmountable. I do not think that SR is "player vs. gamemaster," because that implies that one or the other can "win" and that they are opponents. If Serbitar thinks this, I am not going to be able to convince him otherwise. |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:49 PM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I did not say player vs gamemaster. I said player vs setting. Thats a difference. Example: The GM makes up a setting, including X security guards, drones, a floor plan, a matrix host, a security schedule and some wards. They players have to steel something, they have to beat the setting. The GM does not want to win, it is his job to simulate the world as good as possible. SR = player vs. setting + RP |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:49 PM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Because I play SR now? |
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