 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 29 2007, 12:58 PM
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#67
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652  |
- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker An Agent is a "hacker in a box," and at best have a Pilot 6 (¥18,000) and any given Hacking program of 6 (¥6,000). Where as a flesh-and-blood hacker should be throwing 14+ dice after their first few runs. Yes, a ¥24,000+ Agent is better than an average starting Hacker. But any Hacker of moderate experience will own it. - ruling everything with admin access Admin access has control over everything in a system. This is what administrators do... Getting admin access illicitly is what hackers do. Can you say "Got Root?" - nonexistant baseline
- extremely underpowered TMs Threading. Sprites. Deep Resonance. Who needs Emergence? - AR-VR problems Does not compute. - physically driving / rigging problems (see active drone thread) Does not compute. - device ratings Page 214, for the twelfth bloody time... there is a big green box. They go from 1 to 6, just like everything else in the game. Have a look at the big green box or ask the guy sitting behind the cardboard screen at the end of the table. Y'know, the gamemaster. - encryption Umm... p. 225, first column, ninth full paragraph: "Encryption and Decryption" p. 226, first column, eighth full paragraph: "Encryption" p. 225, first column, fourth full paragraph: "Decrypt" |
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Jan 29 2007, 01:17 PM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
?? moderate experience? Whats are you talking about? 6/6 is the maximum a hacker will ever get in RAW +2 dice from VR + maybe some spespecialisationsr some programs. Are these +2 dice (and thats only a maxed hacker) worth hiring a hacker instead of just looking over your agents should and instructing it what to do, while it hacks everything for you?
So what? It still should not be so easy to hack into a system. A maxed 6/6/6/6 host (and that is as good as it gets) has a chance of about 16% to find a hacker that is hacking in the long way for admin access. And then, thats it. And if you dont succeed, try again next week. The hack in System of RAW is extremely un-flexible and an all-or-nothing thing.
SAM: Hey hacker can you hack in there? Hacker: No idea, ill have to ask my GM first. SAM: Havent you hacked into something like this before? Hacker: Yes, but that was with a different GM. Explanation: Concerning Real life tasks (like Jumping) we dont need exact baselines, because everybody knows what a human can approximately do (though they even give rules for jumping). Concerning the Matrix, we do NOT have a real life, day to day experience baseline. Actually things could be like this or completely different. Without rules, a hacker knows exactly nothing about how hard it is to do this and that, while a Sam definitely knows how hard it would be to jump 10 meters. Thats why you need a baseline.
Fine. Do the math (did you do it?). Youll find that a TM needs about 300-500 Karma to be as good a s a starting hacker. Very balanced.
AR people being faster than VR people, even though fluff say something different.
Well, then read the thread again.
THINK first, then post. I know about the ratings. And the ratings are the problem. Why buy a comlink when you have an all rating 6 credstick just sitting next to you? Please tell me that!
Come on. You want to tell me that you are not aware of the encryption problem and want to discuss with me? Please come again when you know what you are talking about. From all your answers I read that you have not even taken the time to get into the topic. I treat that as a personal insult. I am getting really angry when I have to read such smart ass posts. Its not like I am making things up to annoy other people. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:07 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
A Hacker is sentient, and capable of making decisions. An Agent is a program, and can not improvise. The Hacker can also have a Program 6, Skill 8 (because specialties are cheap karma), Codeslinger +2, Hot-Sim bonus +2, and Edge +1-9. That is, potentially, 19-27 dice. ------------ Probing the target takes hours. With average die rolls, hacking an Admin account into a fully secured system should take all damn night, and only if your a pretty good hacker to begin with. Remember, the Hacker is typically acting solo. If he is pounced on by two Black IC, he is now fighting for his life (physical damage) against two opponents of comparable skill. If the Street Samurai were to face two equal opponents, solo, he would face the very real possibility of death. However, the structure of the game is such that the Sam very rarely has such an encounter... The Hacker faces it every time they trip the alarms on a secured system. (Heck, its probably more like 2-4 Black IC and a Security Hacker). Thus, the system is skewed a little in the Hackers favor. High Stealth, high spoof, and a high exploit... not too much different than the meat-world Adept with maximized Infiltration skills. If probing the target is a real problem for your campaign, stop letting your players have a week to do it. Have Johnson's with deadlines measured in hours, not days. ------------ Sam: Hey hacker can you hack in there? Hacker: Hmm... I hacked into a similar system last week, didn't I? GM: Yeah, the Wal-Mart Net was pretty similar to the K-Mart Net, near as you can figure. Hacker: That's what I thought. Yeah, I should be able to do it. Sam: Cool. Explanation: Consistency. ------------ A rating 4-6 program costs (Rating x ¥1,000)... A Complex Form costs 1 BP per rating point. So at Character Generation, a program is 1/5 the cost of a Complex Form. Did you really think the developers were ignorant of this? That no one did the math except yourself? Technomancers can create new programs on the fly, or pump existing complex forms through the roof with a single die roll. Threading is ungodly potent. Finally, CF's are cheap to advance with karma, advancing faster than active skills and new ones being acquired for less karma. As both Technomancers and Hackers need to improve the same active skills, the real difference is between the rate of karma acquisition and nuyen acquisition. True, the Technomancer splits his karma between skills and CFs, while the Hacker only needs to spend karma on skills. But, the hacker is going to begin to lag behind in improving his programs... Unless you typically hand out ¥6,000 per player per session. ------------ Rigging is superior is AR driving with Wired Reflexes. Yeah, the other guy might have 4IP's to your 3IPs... If he was glutton for punishment enough to buy Wired 3. But you have more skill, a bonus, and a lot more cash to spend pumping your vehicles stats. Plus... your not in the damned thing when it blows up. He is. ------------ A credstick is not a commlink, don't be so deliberately obtuse. ------------ No, I am not "aware of the encryption problem," I know that you think there is a problem with the system, but I do not see one. IIRC, you take issue with the fact that a Hacker can crack most encryption in a few combat turns, at the outside, no? I seem to recall a certain Hacker (and his agent in a box) cutting through incredible amounts of encryption in under an hour in Neuromancer... and the computers of 2070 are, without a doubt, better than the tech used in that book. Decrypt 6 + Response 6 = 12 (Encryption 6 x 2) = 12 At 3.96 hits on average, it will take 3.03 rounds for the Hacker to break into a Encryption 6 file. Then he has to handle the IC. Then he needs to be able to understand the contents of the file. Anything worth hiding in an Encrypt 6 file is worth writing in code too. "The umbrellas will arrive in Uganda tonight. Eagle has the football. Your mother is worried about the cat." Is absolutely meaningless to anyone not aware of the code.
I've read this thread, I've read your arguments. I've read other threads, I've read your other arguments. I've read the rulebook. My interpretation of SR4 (and likely other systems) differs from yours... Primarily, it seems, on two fronts: - I believe in the gamemaster - I believe the developers knew what they were doing making adepts/samurai, hackers/technomancers, mages/mundanes, and riggers/non-riggers all capable of similar ends, by different methods, with different strengths and weaknesses. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:52 PM
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#70
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
I'm playing Shadowrun.
Shadowrun has the Matrix. There's this "Agent Smith" scenario. Either: The Matrix is there and working because "something" prevents the "Agent Smith" scenario from taking it down. OR The Matrix is there and working because no one has bothered to initiate the "Agent Smith" scenario yet. Personally I prefer the "something" approach. Personally I don't need to know what "something" is. I'm not going to worry about it. If a PC want's to try and start the "Agent Smith" scenario, it's just not going to work, maybe there'll be a VR cow from space. |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:14 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Agents: Typically a maxed hacker has 14 dice, a maxed agent 12. Everything else is special situations and edge, which are not the norm. Furthermore, you can directly steer an agent and just let it roll the dice, beut tell it every step. Thus, intelligence is irrelevant. A rating 6 agent is essentially a rating 6 skillwire for hacking (though in the real world skillwires exist only up to 4, maybe they had a reason for that). So agents are comparable to maxed hackers. That is a problem. Probing: Probing target takes hours yes. But 99% of the time you have this time. Hacking in on the fly is for security devices like cameras and so on. Probing is for full blown matrix hosts. Making hacking in with admin access as easy as hacking in with user access will lead to hackers always hacking in with admin access (why shouldnt they?) reducing hacking to this one dice roll. Concerning baseline: So you will always have to rely on remote playing your hacker by the GM? Without a baseline you will have to wait till you played through everything there is (and thus have communicated the baseline from the GM to you). How would your Sam have liked it to ask the GM "And how hard is this" for everything he does? The lacking baseline is one, if not the most complained problem. Just use the search. Again: I am not inventing this. TMs: OK, short version: A hacker gets everything there is for 130k at chargen, with the exception of rating 6 agents and rating 6 system. This he can get after the first 1-2 runs. Then he is maxed stuff-wise. He does not have to spend anything. A TM needs about 500 Karma to get all his mental stats and all available Complex forms at Rating 6.
YES! Furthermore: A TM might have sprites (which are not better than agents with unlimited services) and might have threading. But he totally sucks in the real world. While a TM spends his first 100 Karma to at least get some CFs and does God knows with his money, the Hacker is on his way to become a Sam or something else, because he almost starts maxed in his field. TMs are severely, totally and extremely underpowered. This was discussed numerous times on this board an proven mathematically. Consider it a fact. Concerning VR Rigging- AR: You get enough benefit for Wired. Wired should not be the give-all and be-all. At the moment it is. You rule in AR hacking, AR Rigging and Real world. Fluff wise as well as balance wise, thats just wrong. Ratings: A credstick is a device. Every device is a node, every node can be used to run programs. The only thing hat a credstick dosent have are all the goodies like a camera and so on. Want proof?:
All Matrix enabled devices have Access management:
So every matrix enabled thing is a node:
Conclusion: Everything in SR is a node and can run programs. No need to buy a comlink if you have credsticks lying around. Encryption: Well, if it is no problem for you to break even the hardest encrpytion in 9 Seconds, then why bother with encryption rules at all? For 9 Seconds? Furthermore: Have fun making your world remotely realistic with no encrpytion. Better get some hard currency fast!
SR4 is Player vs Setting. The players are trying to beat a setting (thats what they do in a normal run). If they have to ask the GM for everything thats not going to work. SR is not a fantasy railroad game.
The developers are only humans. And for my taste they dont use enough math when making rules. How many mathematicians and statisticians are with the developers?
Concerning the topics discussed now, I gave no arguments. I just mentioned the issues. I gave the arguments in about two dozen threads during the last 1-2 years. |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:40 PM
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#72
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ok kids, had your fun?
how about we all wait with final judgment on the matrix rules until unwired is out? |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:44 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Okay, I am offically going to bow out of this now. Serbitar's style of play is clearly incompatable with mine. I don't expect the rules to cover everything, nor can I get past his far to strict literal interpertation of the written text. (Credsticks have access, nodes are acessed, thus credsticks are cyberdecks. WTF?)
But, fundamentally, the differnce is very clear... and likely insurmountable. I do not think that SR is "player vs. gamemaster," because that implies that one or the other can "win" and that they are opponents. If Serbitar thinks this, I am not going to be able to convince him otherwise. |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:49 PM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I did not say player vs gamemaster. I said player vs setting. Thats a difference. Example: The GM makes up a setting, including X security guards, drones, a floor plan, a matrix host, a security schedule and some wards. They players have to steel something, they have to beat the setting. The GM does not want to win, it is his job to simulate the world as good as possible. SR = player vs. setting + RP |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:49 PM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Because I play SR now? |
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Jan 29 2007, 03:53 PM
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#76
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
you do? :eek: :silly: |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:02 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
OK, you got me there, was just joking. I dont have friends and can therefore never play SR.
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Jan 29 2007, 04:24 PM
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#78
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Only if the Agent runs on a Node with Response 6. Consulting the Device Rating table tells us that this is rather unlikely. |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:32 PM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Of course you have to use the patented "hacker in a box" commlink with 6/6/6/6 rating that the hacker would also need (well, or a credstick). You can even run a couple of them on the commlink.
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Jan 29 2007, 05:01 PM
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#80
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Suer, that means that your commlink is pretty secure... well, at least until something with Resonance shows up.
But to actually do something on their own, those Agentes have to leave their expensive Nodes... |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:07 PM
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#81
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, Serbitar is right here. The Unwired Team (which I am not on) is currently hashing out the major major problems of the Matrix section of the basic book. Some of the problems Serbitar is going off about are fairly minor, but others are extremely important. Let's do a run-down on the actual mathematical errors and mistakes that permeate those rules:
Personally, I don't care if someone with a synaptic booster 3 can flap around through AR faster than he can pump out commands in VR. I could come up with a dozen explanations of why that might be the casse (sample: "Having your computer run the ASIST Override uses up some of the system response, which you only notice if you can otherwise type in commands very quickly"). I don't care if Encryption is presently owned by decryption (that has been true at various stages of the encryption arms race, maybe someone finally found the weakness in public key that allows it to be solved in small amounts of linear time). But outright contradictions (such as the skill thing), blatant abuses (the credstick commlink), and infinite power loops (Agent Smith) are no good. Those actually have to be solved.
No. I "get" the RAW. I get the contradictions, the discrepencies, and the loopholes. I'm trying to fucking solve some problems. I talk with the authors. I know damn well the state that this part of the rules is in, and it's not pretty. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:13 PM
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#82
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And you are finally making the same mistake as Serbitar - trying to solve problems that aren't. Sadly, it's pretty much the same with the FAQ - it's clarifications actually contradict the RAW and only cause more confusion. (Programs loaded into Agents always run, but count towards the Agent's System, not the Node's; Pilot per RAW is generic and explicitly allowed for Devices;...) The main problems of the SR4 Matrix actually are the missing separation of connection from subscription and the Response drop. Those rules are implemented for small scale devices, yet apply to servers as well - that doesn't work. Those problems are inherent to the unified rating system of the SR4 Matrix. But - the device rating table states that it only is a quick reference, so one should expect to do some monkeywrenching when using those values. |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:37 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The main problem with device rating at the moment is, that System can not be higher than Response.
If you want high System, you need high Response and POW you have a full blown super host right there (like in the case of a credstick). Just throw the rule out the window and you are done. And please, that and response as well as connection issues are NOT the main problem of the SR4 matrix rules. That is ONE of the problems. Stating that there are no problems is just ignorance. Where are all the matrix threads coming from if there are no major problems? You could go on and start to explain why every issue on my list is not a problem, instead of just stating that there are no problems. |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:50 PM
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#84
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Making the 4 Node ratings truely independant would work, indeed - up until now, System is just a synonym for Response. But that requires an Errata, especially concerning what those values influence.
They may not be what you perceive as the main problem of the matrix rules, but they are the main problem of the SR4 matrix, as they affect the very layout in a way it can't work: The matrix rules, as they are now, work only for SOHO-usage.
Because for some people, a null pointer points to zero? ;)
Which one? |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:02 PM
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#85
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This one
Although, thats not a complete list, just what I had in my head while writing the post. I could add: - subscription problems (addin unecessary dice rolls) - nonexistant scanning IC rules (though they are quite important for security) - relay host problems (the FAQ actually made things more confusing) - logic not used in hacking / the defaulting problem - pilot/system/agent confusion/connection (we had a thread about that recently) - abuse of spoof/edit by spoofing/editing system commands - hackers are maxed very early |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:28 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Did I miss a page in the core rulebook, or is the gamemaster no longer allowed to make decisions in SR4?
Inconsistent Dice Pools. Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for. Shitty Technomancers I wholly disagree with the whole premise that Technomancers suck. My Technomancer certainly didn't suck for long, with a mere 400BP/50K I was equalto the starting decker (we compared sheets); and I had Threading. That said if upcoming books increase their power I am not going to complain! :grinbig: Credsticks If their are actual gamemasters who allow credstick to be used as 6/6/6/6 cyberdecks, then they've got other problems. Agent Smith Agents are only as good as the node they are on. If a player does try to pull the 1,001 Agents trick, the gamemaster should feel free to say "No." |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:40 PM
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#87
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, it's what Unwired is for. The Matrix Rules are going to be given a bigger, better, hopefully more thought out treatment in Unwired. When that happens, certain issues like "What the hell is your dice pool?" should get ironed out. Which is the point of this conversation. Serbitar and I are essentially arguing what the Matrix rules should be - and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this was reflected in the ultimate text of Unwired if Serbitar and myself could get on the same page. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:42 PM
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#88
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's still the same - on a high rating Node, perhaps.
Got root?
Care to elaborate?
Please tell that to Mr. Sparky - the nearly unstoppable Fault Sprite.
Not again. It's the most refreshing thing about SR4 to see that finally, people other than pure riggers or pure hackers can do something on the road and in the 'trix. And no, having more actions does not make up those other boni.
They are guidelines.
Yeah, the good old double-edged sword.
Subscription, as it is now, doesn't need any dice rolls... it just keeps the matrix from working.
..you set an intervall as a GM. And the try again rules take care of the rest.
Like I said - the FAQ conserning Matrix rules is confusing at best, and contradicting the RAW at worst. In this case, it makes sense for wireless connections, though.
It's rather a decision than a problem.
Well, you were confused indeed.
AFAIS, per RAW, you only can spoof Pilots.
That's not a specialty of hackers. And, not, getting two skillgroups to 6 is quite costy. |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:44 PM
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#89
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
frank, what your doing i have attempted before. and just like arguing guns with some others on this forum, its a bit like trying to swim up a waterfall...
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Jan 29 2007, 07:44 PM
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#90
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata. Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff. |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:50 PM
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#91
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
have they ever pledged that? while this is fanpro, not fasa, its classical that the matrix supplemental books add something that breaks with old main book rules. alltho nothing more so then what VR2.0 did back in SR2 ;) |
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