 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 29 2007, 03:53 PM
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#76
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panda!  Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242  |
you do? :eek: :silly: |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:02 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
OK, you got me there, was just joking. I dont have friends and can therefore never play SR.
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Jan 29 2007, 04:24 PM
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#78
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Only if the Agent runs on a Node with Response 6. Consulting the Device Rating table tells us that this is rather unlikely. |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:32 PM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Of course you have to use the patented "hacker in a box" commlink with 6/6/6/6 rating that the hacker would also need (well, or a credstick). You can even run a couple of them on the commlink.
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Jan 29 2007, 05:01 PM
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#80
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Suer, that means that your commlink is pretty secure... well, at least until something with Resonance shows up.
But to actually do something on their own, those Agentes have to leave their expensive Nodes... |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:07 PM
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#81
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, Serbitar is right here. The Unwired Team (which I am not on) is currently hashing out the major major problems of the Matrix section of the basic book. Some of the problems Serbitar is going off about are fairly minor, but others are extremely important. Let's do a run-down on the actual mathematical errors and mistakes that permeate those rules:
Personally, I don't care if someone with a synaptic booster 3 can flap around through AR faster than he can pump out commands in VR. I could come up with a dozen explanations of why that might be the casse (sample: "Having your computer run the ASIST Override uses up some of the system response, which you only notice if you can otherwise type in commands very quickly"). I don't care if Encryption is presently owned by decryption (that has been true at various stages of the encryption arms race, maybe someone finally found the weakness in public key that allows it to be solved in small amounts of linear time). But outright contradictions (such as the skill thing), blatant abuses (the credstick commlink), and infinite power loops (Agent Smith) are no good. Those actually have to be solved.
No. I "get" the RAW. I get the contradictions, the discrepencies, and the loopholes. I'm trying to fucking solve some problems. I talk with the authors. I know damn well the state that this part of the rules is in, and it's not pretty. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:13 PM
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#82
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And you are finally making the same mistake as Serbitar - trying to solve problems that aren't. Sadly, it's pretty much the same with the FAQ - it's clarifications actually contradict the RAW and only cause more confusion. (Programs loaded into Agents always run, but count towards the Agent's System, not the Node's; Pilot per RAW is generic and explicitly allowed for Devices;...) The main problems of the SR4 Matrix actually are the missing separation of connection from subscription and the Response drop. Those rules are implemented for small scale devices, yet apply to servers as well - that doesn't work. Those problems are inherent to the unified rating system of the SR4 Matrix. But - the device rating table states that it only is a quick reference, so one should expect to do some monkeywrenching when using those values. |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:37 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
The main problem with device rating at the moment is, that System can not be higher than Response.
If you want high System, you need high Response and POW you have a full blown super host right there (like in the case of a credstick). Just throw the rule out the window and you are done. And please, that and response as well as connection issues are NOT the main problem of the SR4 matrix rules. That is ONE of the problems. Stating that there are no problems is just ignorance. Where are all the matrix threads coming from if there are no major problems? You could go on and start to explain why every issue on my list is not a problem, instead of just stating that there are no problems. |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:50 PM
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#84
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Making the 4 Node ratings truely independant would work, indeed - up until now, System is just a synonym for Response. But that requires an Errata, especially concerning what those values influence.
They may not be what you perceive as the main problem of the matrix rules, but they are the main problem of the SR4 matrix, as they affect the very layout in a way it can't work: The matrix rules, as they are now, work only for SOHO-usage.
Because for some people, a null pointer points to zero? ;)
Which one? |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:02 PM
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#85
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This one
Although, thats not a complete list, just what I had in my head while writing the post. I could add: - subscription problems (addin unecessary dice rolls) - nonexistant scanning IC rules (though they are quite important for security) - relay host problems (the FAQ actually made things more confusing) - logic not used in hacking / the defaulting problem - pilot/system/agent confusion/connection (we had a thread about that recently) - abuse of spoof/edit by spoofing/editing system commands - hackers are maxed very early |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:28 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Did I miss a page in the core rulebook, or is the gamemaster no longer allowed to make decisions in SR4?
Inconsistent Dice Pools. Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for. Shitty Technomancers I wholly disagree with the whole premise that Technomancers suck. My Technomancer certainly didn't suck for long, with a mere 400BP/50K I was equalto the starting decker (we compared sheets); and I had Threading. That said if upcoming books increase their power I am not going to complain! :grinbig: Credsticks If their are actual gamemasters who allow credstick to be used as 6/6/6/6 cyberdecks, then they've got other problems. Agent Smith Agents are only as good as the node they are on. If a player does try to pull the 1,001 Agents trick, the gamemaster should feel free to say "No." |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:40 PM
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#87
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, it's what Unwired is for. The Matrix Rules are going to be given a bigger, better, hopefully more thought out treatment in Unwired. When that happens, certain issues like "What the hell is your dice pool?" should get ironed out. Which is the point of this conversation. Serbitar and I are essentially arguing what the Matrix rules should be - and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this was reflected in the ultimate text of Unwired if Serbitar and myself could get on the same page. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:42 PM
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#88
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's still the same - on a high rating Node, perhaps.
Got root?
Care to elaborate?
Please tell that to Mr. Sparky - the nearly unstoppable Fault Sprite.
Not again. It's the most refreshing thing about SR4 to see that finally, people other than pure riggers or pure hackers can do something on the road and in the 'trix. And no, having more actions does not make up those other boni.
They are guidelines.
Yeah, the good old double-edged sword.
Subscription, as it is now, doesn't need any dice rolls... it just keeps the matrix from working.
..you set an intervall as a GM. And the try again rules take care of the rest.
Like I said - the FAQ conserning Matrix rules is confusing at best, and contradicting the RAW at worst. In this case, it makes sense for wireless connections, though.
It's rather a decision than a problem.
Well, you were confused indeed.
AFAIS, per RAW, you only can spoof Pilots.
That's not a specialty of hackers. And, not, getting two skillgroups to 6 is quite costy. |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:44 PM
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#89
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
frank, what your doing i have attempted before. and just like arguing guns with some others on this forum, its a bit like trying to swim up a waterfall...
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Jan 29 2007, 07:44 PM
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#90
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata. Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff. |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:50 PM
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#91
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
have they ever pledged that? while this is fanpro, not fasa, its classical that the matrix supplemental books add something that breaks with old main book rules. alltho nothing more so then what VR2.0 did back in SR2 ;) |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:53 PM
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#92
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's what, for example, I did with the extra Spirits in Street Magic. Unfortunately, the basic rules in the Matrix section are contradictory. You can't actually move forward without contradicting the RAW. It's not something that I am particularly happy about. Something has got to give. You can't just throw in more computer stuff that is roughly on par power wise with the stuff that already exists - the stuff that exists is itself conflictory. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:56 PM
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#93
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I agree, this is an errata situation. I have talked with Synner a while back about 'fixing' the matrix rules in the BBB and he basicly told me, 'No'. This makes me think that even with an errata, only minor things would get fixed... |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:58 PM
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#94
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Unwired will not contradict SR4 BBB. Both Adam and Synner and Rob have stated that several times.
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Jan 29 2007, 07:59 PM
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#95
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
This has been a pretty active discussion...I'd like to add a couple thoughts. The inconsistent dice pools, I don't see as inconsistent...I mean, (and forgive me for not putting a page reference here), if you are physically accessing a "computer", then you use Logic + Program Rating. If you are accessing it via AR/VR, if you have proper access, it becomes your Computer + Program Rating...if its an illegal access, it turns to Hacking + Program Rating. Yes, there are multiple options, but after that, I think everything below each tier is consistent. TMs...well, I have been running a campaign for about a year, and I still disallow them as characters, so I am personally not worried about that...and really have no opinion either way as I really have just always skipped those areas. Credsticks...even using a Device Rating 6, what all can an agent/hacker do from within a credstick node? Maybe its just because it has never come up in my games, but a credstick is not a commlink, so there is only a limited amount of actions an icon can take when in that node. View logs, initiate transactions, etc...to me, that is like a hacker carrying a 6/6/6/6 coffee machine with him on runs...it just doesn't make sense as all devices, even rated the same, don't have all the capabilities as a comm. Agents...again, I must admit that none of my hackers I run for have even used one so far in a year's worth of gaming. While funtionally the same as IC, I don't think I would allow a hacker to load an agent to all nodes...as some just would not accept it, even as an admin action. I mean, IC are different from agents...so I just don't see a hacker being able to load and start running 1,000 agents...just the act of doing that, what is like 1,000 complex actions? Assuming you even have the nuyen to purchase that many agents, in hot VR that is 5 minutes of purely loading agents...kinda ridiculous. Plus, while agents aren't completely dumb, they aren't AI either, so sending them out on other nodes and having them perform actions will require a lot of micromanagement. Say you send one out to edit a log on a remote node and it is attacked...using its own "wits", I don't see it able to react unless specifically directed, much like a spirit. So, if a spider or IC engage it in combat, I don't see it automatically defending itself or attacking...I just don't view agents as a replacement for hackers, as they don't react like a hacker...they get tasks and perform them, nothing more, nothing less... I don't know how many people posting in this thread are coming from a true "playing" perspective...as a GM with good players, there are just a lot of things that don't come into play as some of these arguments outline... |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:06 PM
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#96
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I still remember, thank you. :P
Not really. They are not well enough defined to actually contradict themselves. There is just on main flaw in the dependencies, and that is System. As a rating directly derived from response, it actually doesn't serve any purpose other than a different label... while it serves as a limit to all kind of things.
And you can't do so by contradicting it, either - elsewhere, at best.
Just, those are not minor changes. It's even more than what happend to ammunition and stuff - it's more like what happended to rigging or learning... or the Medic Agent trick. And that's quite possible within an Errata. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:07 PM
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#97
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@ Rotbart: Agents: still we have the situation that a buyable agent equals a maxed hacker in almost every aspect. Why hire hackers? Just buy agents and hardware once. root: I know that it is realistic. It is just to easy to get, Read this thread for clarifications. blaseline: read this thread for clarifications TMs: One spirit being broken does not canel out another broken thing, underpowered TMs VR/AR: Well, you call it refreshing . .. device ratings: you acknowledged the response/system rating problem yourself encryption: breaking a realistic game world subscription: adds dice rolls by forcing people to intercept, percept and spoof scanning IC: ah, you do someting as the GM, thats substituting rules . . . relay hosts: you say it yourself logic: yes its a design desicion/stream lining problem pilot/system/agent confusion: As you saw in the thread it was not only me, and it is still anti streamlined spoof: per RAW you can spoof anything edit anything you want maxed hackers: compared to others hackers are maxed extremely early, that not to be denied |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:10 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What is missing? The camera, the GPS and others, but apart from that they are full blown nodes. 6/6/6/6 is 6/6/6/6. It can run agents, run software and connect to other nodes. What else is needed? |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:16 PM
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#99
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That only works if you are building security - and only as long as no-one with Security+ access tells the Agents to do other things.
I'm not entirely sure whether the lack of encryption is actually breaking the world right now... just like credit card payments. Emergence will most likely change that. ;)
Ah... actually, you can do the same for any wireless connection. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:17 PM
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#100
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
An interface. |
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