 Hacker Theory, Why this is possible. |
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 Jan 29 2007, 07:53 PM
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#92
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
That's what, for example, I did with the extra Spirits in Street Magic. Unfortunately, the basic rules in the Matrix section are contradictory. You can't actually move forward without contradicting the RAW. It's not something that I am particularly happy about. Something has got to give. You can't just throw in more computer stuff that is roughly on par power wise with the stuff that already exists - the stuff that exists is itself conflictory. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:56 PM
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#93
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I agree, this is an errata situation. I have talked with Synner a while back about 'fixing' the matrix rules in the BBB and he basicly told me, 'No'. This makes me think that even with an errata, only minor things would get fixed... |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:58 PM
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#94
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Unwired will not contradict SR4 BBB. Both Adam and Synner and Rob have stated that several times.
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Jan 29 2007, 07:59 PM
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#95
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
This has been a pretty active discussion...I'd like to add a couple thoughts. The inconsistent dice pools, I don't see as inconsistent...I mean, (and forgive me for not putting a page reference here), if you are physically accessing a "computer", then you use Logic + Program Rating. If you are accessing it via AR/VR, if you have proper access, it becomes your Computer + Program Rating...if its an illegal access, it turns to Hacking + Program Rating. Yes, there are multiple options, but after that, I think everything below each tier is consistent. TMs...well, I have been running a campaign for about a year, and I still disallow them as characters, so I am personally not worried about that...and really have no opinion either way as I really have just always skipped those areas. Credsticks...even using a Device Rating 6, what all can an agent/hacker do from within a credstick node? Maybe its just because it has never come up in my games, but a credstick is not a commlink, so there is only a limited amount of actions an icon can take when in that node. View logs, initiate transactions, etc...to me, that is like a hacker carrying a 6/6/6/6 coffee machine with him on runs...it just doesn't make sense as all devices, even rated the same, don't have all the capabilities as a comm. Agents...again, I must admit that none of my hackers I run for have even used one so far in a year's worth of gaming. While funtionally the same as IC, I don't think I would allow a hacker to load an agent to all nodes...as some just would not accept it, even as an admin action. I mean, IC are different from agents...so I just don't see a hacker being able to load and start running 1,000 agents...just the act of doing that, what is like 1,000 complex actions? Assuming you even have the nuyen to purchase that many agents, in hot VR that is 5 minutes of purely loading agents...kinda ridiculous. Plus, while agents aren't completely dumb, they aren't AI either, so sending them out on other nodes and having them perform actions will require a lot of micromanagement. Say you send one out to edit a log on a remote node and it is attacked...using its own "wits", I don't see it able to react unless specifically directed, much like a spirit. So, if a spider or IC engage it in combat, I don't see it automatically defending itself or attacking...I just don't view agents as a replacement for hackers, as they don't react like a hacker...they get tasks and perform them, nothing more, nothing less... I don't know how many people posting in this thread are coming from a true "playing" perspective...as a GM with good players, there are just a lot of things that don't come into play as some of these arguments outline... |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:06 PM
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#96
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I still remember, thank you. :P
Not really. They are not well enough defined to actually contradict themselves. There is just on main flaw in the dependencies, and that is System. As a rating directly derived from response, it actually doesn't serve any purpose other than a different label... while it serves as a limit to all kind of things.
And you can't do so by contradicting it, either - elsewhere, at best.
Just, those are not minor changes. It's even more than what happend to ammunition and stuff - it's more like what happended to rigging or learning... or the Medic Agent trick. And that's quite possible within an Errata. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:07 PM
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#97
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@ Rotbart: Agents: still we have the situation that a buyable agent equals a maxed hacker in almost every aspect. Why hire hackers? Just buy agents and hardware once. root: I know that it is realistic. It is just to easy to get, Read this thread for clarifications. blaseline: read this thread for clarifications TMs: One spirit being broken does not canel out another broken thing, underpowered TMs VR/AR: Well, you call it refreshing . .. device ratings: you acknowledged the response/system rating problem yourself encryption: breaking a realistic game world subscription: adds dice rolls by forcing people to intercept, percept and spoof scanning IC: ah, you do someting as the GM, thats substituting rules . . . relay hosts: you say it yourself logic: yes its a design desicion/stream lining problem pilot/system/agent confusion: As you saw in the thread it was not only me, and it is still anti streamlined spoof: per RAW you can spoof anything edit anything you want maxed hackers: compared to others hackers are maxed extremely early, that not to be denied |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:10 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What is missing? The camera, the GPS and others, but apart from that they are full blown nodes. 6/6/6/6 is 6/6/6/6. It can run agents, run software and connect to other nodes. What else is needed? |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:16 PM
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#99
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That only works if you are building security - and only as long as no-one with Security+ access tells the Agents to do other things.
I'm not entirely sure whether the lack of encryption is actually breaking the world right now... just like credit card payments. Emergence will most likely change that. ;)
Ah... actually, you can do the same for any wireless connection. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:17 PM
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#100
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
An interface. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:17 PM
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#101
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Which is unfortunate, because the SR4 BBB contradicts itself, which means that anything you print contradicts the SR4 BBB one way or another. If your premises include A and ~A, then printing A or ~A is a contradiction of the original premises. This is why I didn't try to get on the Unwired team. I knew I couldn't explain this more than twenty times without calling Rob or Peter nasty names.
I'm going to stop you there before you confuse anyone else. The rules say:
That's fine, although it's needlessly confusing because players will essentially always hack themselves an Account appropriate to whatever they want to do before they attempt any other actions. In short, there's no reason for a lot of tests to be expressed as a Hacking attempt, because generally speaking you will be making a Computer roll for every test except Exploit. But moving on to the part that actually is contradictory rather than just confusing:
Oh crap. Everything you do is interacting with a device and utilizing a program. There are two mutually exclusive Dicepools that are both defined as being the pool that you use for every single action you perform on the Matrix. That's a big ho-doo problem that must be resolved at the institutional level. -Frank |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:19 PM
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#102
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
So a TM can perform all tasks that a Commlink requires by using a cert credstick? Sweet. I need to tell my GM this. (Yeah, my TM has a commlink, but its a crappy 1/1/3/1. But with the all 6 credstick, I dont have to worry about that anymore. Plus, no one will think to hack a credstick to look for my data.) |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:19 PM
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#103
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats easily fixed, and does not prevent you from running agents on it. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:22 PM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well agents are supposed to be their own security.
So a world where every single thing is based on wireless transactions can function wihtout proper encryption? Have fun living in that world then . . .
Please re-iterate. I dont get your answer. I say subscription is anti streamlining by adding useless dice rolls but not changin anything. The right way to implement this is to add to hack in threshold. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:23 PM
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#105
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I am with you in this. I am just stating what I am told. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:29 PM
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#106
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You still need to instruct them - at which point they are basically ICs. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:32 PM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well of course, agents = IC (when on defensive roles). Whats the problem?
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Jan 29 2007, 08:34 PM
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#108
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Like I said - as soon as an intruder reaches Security clearence, he can simply tell your completly automated system to focus on things other than him, scan only once every hour, etc.
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Jan 29 2007, 08:40 PM
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#109
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, how smart are agents?
how big of a mind trick can you trow at them and expect them to figure it out? |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:47 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
True, but a hacker wont be there 24/7 in the first place, so again, what is the drawback of a human steered agent? A rating X agent is basically a hacking/computer/datasearch X skillwire. @hobgoblin: Thats why you look over the agents shoulder and just order it to do test X. Like a skillwire. And send multiple copies of agents elsewhere to do other things. |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:02 PM
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#111
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Please specify the case in which this is used. Do you mean the Agent in Persona case? |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:10 PM
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#112
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
In the case where you load the agent and the software you want on your comlink and instruct the agent to do this, that and this, while watching what it is doing.
Works exactly like skillwires. Cant use edge and specialisation, but does exactly what you want. |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:15 PM
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#113
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There's a difference between driving a car with skillwires and getting a cab...
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Jan 29 2007, 09:17 PM
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#114
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Not rules wise, and thats what effectively counts.
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Jan 29 2007, 09:29 PM
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#115
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's about as funny as how firearms can replace any other skill. :dead:
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Jan 29 2007, 09:39 PM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
???
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