 Riggers, Drones and Upgrades, HELP!? |
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  Jan 28 2007, 06:07 PM
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#26
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jacked in  Group: Admin Posts: 9,424 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463  |
Evasive Driving doesn't make a difference, though, that's just Full Defense.
Yeah, I'm starting to see the similarities here... it's the same problem (a generic problem of SR4). When there are 3 stats and you use only 2 of them (i.e. no Logic needed for Hacking), the problems arise. Also when you simply swap one stat for another (Response instead of Reaction). The whole initiative in the Astral or Matrix is also funny, since you are supposed to be so fast there, but are slower than a typical sammy. The source of the problem is clear enough, though. Compared to average mundanes, you are much better then. But there are so many ways to augment mundanes, while there is no equivalent for the other realms. Astral and Matrix should be compared with augmented mundanes not average mundanes. Bye Thanee |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:05 AM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
well, here's a few points:
1) it's generally cheaper to upgrade response than it is to upgrade reaction. 2) the +2 dice from control rig apply to everything. when stacked with hotsim bonus, you're looking at +4 dice for rigging the vehicle. 3) it is substantially cheaper to get hotsim VR than it is to get 3 meat IPs. 4) reduced thresholds is worth 3 dice, on average, to any test to which it applies. ask your GM if he includes thresholds set by other dice rolls (for example, an attack with 3 hits could be argued to have a threshold to dodge of 3) 4) the savings over having meat IP boosters means you can afford to spend more money on your vehicle. for example, you can install 5 weapon mounts, put smart firing platforms in them, and load each one up with an ares alpha, LMG, or whatever... because instead of blowing a minimum of 32,000 and 3 essence (more likely you're going to go for alpha, which makes it 64,000, or synaptic booster 2 for 160,000) for wired 2, you spent 10,000 for a control rig (0.5 essence), 10,000 for response 5, and you've got an effective base dice pool of 9, before skills, for any vehicle related test. you also have essence available for later improvements, which the guy with 3 meat IPs won't. the savings may also mean you can add on a few more drones, a back up vehicle, etc. so sure, the guy with 3 meat IPs probably won't go for hotsim rigging. so sure, there's not a whole heck of a lot of incentive for your sammy to choose rigging over normal driving. i don't see this as a major problem, though, because rigging is much better for 90+% of the people out there (keeping in mind you need 9 reaction to equal the effective reaction of a person with response 5, control rig, and hotsim, which isn't available at chargen) of course, imo it's still better to get the best of both worlds and install a good command program on your commlink, and remote control your vehicles from hotsim. but that's just me. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:09 AM
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#28
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,424 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I'm not sure about that... When you start with having neither Wired nor a Control Rig, adding Wired - while it's a bit more expensive and costs more Essence for sure - adds quite a bit more. - you are about equal to a rigger in controlling a vehicle (using AR) - you are *better* than a rigger when it comes to avoiding attacks (Control Rig doesn't help there, I think) - you can drive *any* vehicle that way, not just souped-up ones - your Reaction and IP works outside of the vehicle as well - you do not suffer from Addiction problems or Biofeedback issues - it's possible (expensive though) to upgrade to 4 IP What you cannot do, and what the rigger is really good for is remote controlling, I think. But it just seems weird, that the Control Rig / VR does not really work better than manual driving with augmented Reaction. Bye Thanee |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:18 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,413 |
There appears to be a slight glitch in the errata about using "Command" to control drones.
However, the section about controlling Devices contradicts this. ( pg.220 3rd paragraph)
As I see it Command simply allows you to issue commands to the drone, but the drone is left to carry it out and acts on its own ratings whereas jumping in allows the rigger to control all aspects of the drone and use his skills with the drones sensor / response ratings to accomplish the tasks.
As for the device rating of a drone.
And doing a bit more digging there appears to be two signal values for a drone. The commlink type signal rating and the sensor package also has a signal rating. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:20 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
that's two different things. you can remote control a drone, which requires a command program. essentially, you are using it as if it were a remote control car. or, you can issue commands. this does not require a command program, and uses all the drone's stats. |
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Jan 29 2007, 02:43 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Of course the "commlink-type signal" has one rating and the sensor package has a seperate signal rating. They are two different things, the drones commlink signal measures, cheifly, how far away it can be from you can receive communications. This is exactly analogous to the signal rating of your character's commlink.
The sensor package has a singal too, but this measures how far its sensors can pick upon things. This is analogous to the rating of your character's handheld geiger counter, or other sensors he might carry. There are basically three things you can do with a drone: - You can remote control a drone, where you control it. - You can rig a drone, "ride it", and control it better. - You can issue commands to a drone, and let its Pilot act on its own. |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:13 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
doesn't really add more to rigging though, and is much less BP intensive. for example, let's take someone who intends to be primarily a rigger. now, to drive almost as well in the meatworld (without spending BPs like crazy) he will need: reaction 5(7) (40 BP) (note: reaction enhancers don't stack with wired officially, so max reaction at chargen is 7, unless you spend an extra 20 BP for exceptional reaction, or 25 BP to get the last point) agility 5(7) (40 BP) (note: can go higher if you are willing to take exception attribute for 20 BP, elf for 30 BP, of last point for 25 BP) wired 2 (minimum 32,000 :nuyen: or 6.4 BP) 2 point agi boost (if going for cheap, muscle replacement 2, costing 10k or 2 BP, but will probably be more ultimately) vehicle skills (will be basically same as full rigger, so cost will equal out here). total 88.4 BP + vehicle skills, has dicepool of 7 + skills for hotsim, on the other hand, he needs: response 5 (around 10k :nuyen: iirc, or 2 BP give or take) control rig (10,000 :nuyen: or 2 BP) hotsim module (500 :nuyen: or .1 BP) total 2.1 BP + vehicle skills, has dicepool of 9 + skills (5 response, 2 control rig, 2 hotsim). that's roughly an 85 BP difference... now granted, realistically our VR rigger isn't going to have agility and reaction 1, but if we give him a respectable 3(5) in both, then he's adequate in the meatworld (especially if he uses combat drugs or something like that), and still saves about 40 BP. 40 BP is not insignificant, and a dicepool which will on average be 2 dice higher is not bad either. basically, it all depends on your focus. do you want to focus on meatworld but be able to drive, or do you want to focus on driving but not be totally useless in the meatworld? |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:13 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,413 |
Got stuck with the reference loop in several sections, would be nice not to use similar terms for different effects. :)
Only if you miss the -1 threshold to all Vehicle tests while jacked into the vehicle or remotely piloting it and the +1 dice pool for Vehicle tests when using AR without remote control. |
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Jan 29 2007, 04:52 PM
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#34
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,424 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Yeah, I certainly see where you are getting to...
It's still somewhat weird, though, that you cannot get Reaction values for purely mental actions (same with Astral and the Matrix, really), which can compete with cybered meatbodies... there's something wrong in the concept here. :) Bye Thanee |
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Jan 29 2007, 05:28 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i'll agree to that... which is why technomantic remote control riggers of doom are teh awesome :P (start off with resonance 5 or 6, command 5 or 6, thread command as high as you can, add on the quality codeslinger(control device) and remote control in hotsim with an effective attribute of 8+ (up to 10 or 12 potentially, and when using the command program you don't suffer the distraction penalty of -2), +4 to your dicepool (2 from codeslinger cheese, 2 from hotsim), and add on the skills. first time you submerge, pick up overclock for the 4th IP as well. you can be comfortably throwing 14 dice before full dodge rolls with this method, and that's assuming you don't have a machine sprite diagnosing the vehicle you drive. or another sprite boosting your effective command CF. of course, the drawback is that, as a technomancer, you are probably really weak in just about every other department imaginable. but you can make one heck of a rigger... |
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Jan 29 2007, 05:53 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,413 |
Only wired reflexes lv3 give a better edge to initiative overall, and it comes with steep cost in essence and nuyen which makes it less attractive for other disciplines. ( Theres also the annoying free action to activate it and the potential for someone to deactivate it.)
Plus running in AR mode leaves you vulnerable to distractions in the meat world which may add penalties to matrix activities. Not to mention the tricks you can play with Agents, drones and spirits can potentially make up for less raw initiative and initiative passes. |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:42 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
??? Is there any reason not to buy wired 3 for every damn character? Wired 3 owns in rigging, hackign and real life. Distractions? Please, come on. Give me some real reasoning. Tricks? What Tricks? You mean VR Tricks? Well you get them anyways. If you want you can just go FullVR with no additional costs. Wired 3 has no drawbacks. Its an "I win" button in rigging, hacking and real life. It should be in real life, but not in rigging or hacking. |
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Jan 29 2007, 06:47 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
What the heck are you on about now? It's 5 Essence!
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Jan 29 2007, 07:06 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
It was 5 essence when it didnt own rigging and hacking! So it obviously was worth 5 Essence without those. Which makes it obviously too good if it now also owns rigging and hacking.
And you can get synaptic 3 now. But my major point is still fluff and setting. I want VR rigging and VR hacking to be far superior to anything meat-style. Everybody discussing with me should know that. |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:29 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
They are superior; look at Jaid's posts.
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Jan 29 2007, 07:36 PM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
We have:
response 6, skill 6, VR 2, Rigger Control 2, VR threshold bonus 3 = 19 dice and 3 IPs on the one hand and reaction 9, skill 6 = 15 dice and 4 IPs on the other. Thats not what I would call superior. Fortunately the simple house rule that allows only 1 vehicle action per turn when not going VR fixes this quite nicely. |
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Jan 29 2007, 07:50 PM
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#42
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Fortunately for the rest of us, the RAW allows wired to the teeth samurais to drive like mad, too. |
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Jan 29 2007, 08:30 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Seems like the Samy can do everything like mad, well except casting spells.
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Jan 29 2007, 09:03 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
Except, in real life, the Rigger actually has a Pilot XYZ (Speciality) skill of 6(8), and the Street Samurai doesn't... although he might slot a Pilot XYZ 4 activesoft. The Rigger also has alot more nuyen to spend on his vehicle; because he didn;t have to buy all the sammy's chrome, guns, or armor. He has "pimped his ride," to put it in the vernacular. The Rigger's 21 dice, give him 6.93 hits on average. With all thresholds lowered by 3. The Samurai's 13 dice, give him 4.29. Your hypothetical 15 dice driver-urai gets 5.95. I'll take seven hits over six... and it is certainly superior to four. Plus, lowering the threshold is huge. A 21-dice Rigger can reasonably expect to hit a test with a threshold of ten. Finally, what are the chances the Samurai knows how to use vehicular weaponry? Is he as good as the Rigger? Does his car have enough armor? Does he have a vehicular weapon? Can it beat the Rigger's armor? (And, as I said before, the Rigger doesn't even need to be in the car...) |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:12 PM
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#45
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,424 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
How the heck did you calculate those odd numbers? ;) The probability for a 5 on a d6 is exactly 1/3, so expected hits for 21 dice is exactly 7 (one-third of 21), and so on (4-1/3 and 5). Bye Thanee |
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Jan 29 2007, 09:17 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
(21 x 0.33) = 6.93
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Jan 29 2007, 09:20 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, remember my statement about humans, mathematicians and statisticians? This is 2nd year math and people seem to make mistakes . . .
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Jan 29 2007, 09:54 PM
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#48
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,424 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Ah, I see. Well 0.33 isn't 1/3 (one-third), it's just an approximation of 1/3 (which becomes apparant when you multiply both by 3 - 0.33 x 3 is 0.99 while 1/3 x 3 is 1). Thus 6.93 is an approximation of 7, which is the precise result here. :) If you use 0.3333333333 you will get a better approximation, not the precise value, though, you would have to type in an unlimited number of '3's to get that. Or at least enough to get beyond the precision of your calculator. ;) Bye Thanee |
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Jan 29 2007, 11:14 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
I am a paralegal, and a historian, not a statistician. The nice thing about my B.A. is Hostroy is that it only required first year math. :D
Anyhow, even if we adjust a few decimal places, the Rigger is getting more hits on average. That's the real point, my crappy math just makes it a little harder to follow, I guess. So, the Rigger's 21 dice, give him 7 hits on average. With all thresholds lowered by 3. And the Samurai's 13 dice, give him 4 1/3. Serbitar's hypothetical 15 dice driver-urai gets 5. The Rigger is adhead in the money-put-into-my-car game (I may have gotten a C in statistics, but gosh darn it I got an A in addition/subtraction :P ), which is a signifigant advantage. Samurai are fast, I will never deny them that... but they will have, at best, one extra IP. The Rigger has better gear, focused skills, and isn't even there. If the Rigger car is nuked, he just takes dump shock. If the Samurai's car is nuked, his player rolls up a new PC. |
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Jan 29 2007, 11:43 PM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Well, I was speaking of Grammar school. And people really shouldnt be proud of being bad at basic maths. Too many people are. But my point is: The SAM is getting all hes got for rigging for free, he would have bought the stuff if there were 0 rigging benefits. He already owns in real life. The rigger doesnt. Yes, granted, the rigger is a little better, but nut considerably. But the SAM is not focusing an rigging at all and still can compete with the dedicated rigger, just by purchasing sometjing he would purchase anyway. AND he can do the same with hacking. (whre he is even better compared to hacker, becuse you dont get the -1 threshold in VR as hacker) So even if you dont place the same priorities as I do, you should at least understand my reasoning. |
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