 Speeding Up Hacking, A Matrix rant |
  |
 Jan 29 2007, 04:19 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
That's basically what I intended with "file identifier" above. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 06:34 AM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Well that is why I was thinking of it from the GUI point of view. The file may or may not have the cover detail information but the interface is going to recognize the file extention and translate it how you want. It would work just like any browser file extension library. In fact the AR file doesn't really have to be anything more then a url and a simple text file to allow filtering. You get within range, your interface checks the text against it's filters for things you would like, then it downloads the file from the non-virtual parts of the matrix and you have your floating AR ad. It just doesn't appear until you are closer to it. The system would have a local ad buffer that would reduce the amount of accessing necessary so that if you walk out of range and then back in range it doesn't have to redownload the file. You could even have most of the local files automatically download when you say walk into a mall. This would give you all the ads and a map. That way if you select the map then you could see the ad on the side of the map to notice a sale.
Actually I don't see why there needs to be a difference between the VR and the AR for most file actions. You can hold an image of a book in AR just as easily as in VR. The AR doesnt have to be floating windows that are partially see through. If you have the AR with a minimum level of tactile simsense then you could pull a scroll out of your ass that only you could see. With the same systems that would allow you to think a command in VR you could do it in AR. There is no real reason why not, just habit of the way we are thinking about the setting. Basically I think of the matrix as composed of several different networks. There is the internet as it is today but faster. There is the media network which replaced cable tv and movie theaters. There is the traffic grid which has a 3d version of each city. There are several VR locations like a central mall for the UCAS covering all the chain stores and each megacorp would have it's own virtual mall. There would be a variety of entertainment systems as well. (And I can't remember the novel I got this from - I think it was one of the tad williams novels but I'm not sure) The advantage of VR is that you can have a server that is running a model of say a cafe. It may be fairly small. Now your actual VR filter would be like a chat program. You go in and when your friends log on they are in the same room and you see each other. You hang out and have fun. You could go in and log a different list and those people would be visible. Now if you were seeing it from the server's side you would see 6,000 people in that same room with only 15 seats. You could do the same as in the malls. They can be as full or as empty as you like. You could only have the people that have similar interests show up, etc. From the actual matrix perspective that is what I think will happen. But ther is another level that makes the matrix SEEM to be just VR. Your commlink has a reality filter on it. This is basically like a theme manager on your desktop. You turn on your reality filter and suddenly you are in full VR. You would see some sort of office first. This is where you would work from. You access your files based on what ever metaphor you like (I could see some bizarre stuff at this point - human skin scrolls, flying monkey agents, whatever). You could have your agent running around like a secretary or a cartoon character bringing you things. Then you access a web site. You could see it as a newspaper or a scroll or have your agent sing the text to you. OR you could have it load as a VR location. You go out your door and enter the web page. Any pictures on the site become pictures in an office or on a slide show. The web site could have a series of extra files that are loading in this case to load the standard office meeting room that comes with most reality filters (if it doesn't then your system will ask you if you want to download an update or use a different setting). It presents the web site information as an office meeting. If you ask a question then your system will first go through the FAQ. So far everything is from a small number of text files and a few images. The rest is your commlink and reality filter. Now if you ask a question that it can't answer it will ask you if you want to it to ask someone else. If you do it will contact the web site and ask the system the question. It's agent will think about it and answer if it can. If not then it will try and call a real secretary. They may answer by verbally answering it or by openning a window in your interface to see you and answer you. Or it could say that the information is not available and move on. If you ask to speak with someone in this company and they agree then that person will enter their reality filter. They will see the room as whatever they set it to be. This could be a normal office and yours could be a dungeon scene or the other way around. They enter the room and shake hands with you. You talk for a while and then you both leave. The rooms disappear for both of you afterward. This doesn't create a room on the server. The call was passed to the company man's commlink. It might have been routed through the server for quality assurance and so you can't get the guy's commlink address. After that he goes to the Ares Matrix Mall by opening another door in his office. That would be the reason that most people think that the matrix is all VR. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 02:41 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I'll be honest. I haven't read every post in this thread. Some of it hurt my brain. It made me think harder than I wanted to about the hows and whys of the Matrix.
But here's my two cents: There's this whole debate of "Why VR?" VR seems to impose unnatural limits on one's behavior and perceptions, as exemplified in the whole "sneaking past the security guard IC while he's looking the other way" example. So here's the way I see it. VR is more than your interface. Stripping it away is not the same as when you decide not to use some silly skin on your internet browser. It's like getting rid of the browser. You don't read raw code, because you're not a machine. That's why code exists. To be translated into something meaningful to a human. Like reality, in the Matrix, there is a huge amount of information around you, to be percieved at all times. Hence perception tests. The guard didn't see you there, because he saw something else. (Why don't IC see raw code? Maybe they do. But that's still a lot of code. They might not get through all of it in time to see you before you're gone. Same effect, slightly different logic.) Which brings us to AR. If VR is using the Matrix in a good internet browser, then AR is using the internet on your cell phone. It's all there, but performance and ease of use suffer. Moreso in AR, because you aren't seeing all the VR. You are relying on your comm/programs to alert you to anything important. So, basically, this turned into an almost incoherent ramble of about 5 cents, rather than 2. Ah, well. At least now I know how I want to run my Matrix stuff in more solid terms. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 05:21 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Pretty good perspective. The way I've described the whole IC on patrol thing to players is that what's actually happening is that the "IC on patrol" is functioning in many respects like a current day antivirus program (one that's continuously running full system checks). It cycles through all the data, processes, icons, files, subscription lists, and other activity on your node, sector by sector, looking for discrepancies and tell-tales - this is virtually represented as an IC patrolling the simsense representation of the various "sectors"/subsystems in a node. When an IC hits a "sector" that you're in you might still elude it by disguising your presence as legitimate activity or another icon or whatever. In many respects this mirrors the sort of thing that happens when a guard walks by the door you're hiding behind in real life - which is how it might be represented as in VR.
There's also a misconception that a node is an open space or small environment in VR when it could be divided into different rooms ("sectors" as it were) dedicated to different subsystems/functions/operations - just like an SR3 host. So if the IC is checking a subsystem or file you're not accessing, he might not be in the same virtual "room" as you. Technically he is doing Perception Tests on everything in his corner of the node and is focused elsewhere rather than where you "are" (what you are accessing). Not sure that's as clear as I would have liked but its been a long day and I'm tired. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 07:03 PM
Post
#30
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I think all of that was very clear, but it still doesn't answer Garrowolf's initial questions: if the IC is running through some sort of cycle looking through each room, why roll Perception checks for it? Why wouldn't it "percieve" in exactly the same way, presumably the most efficient way, each time? Then its "perception" would be a constant threshold against the hacker's attempts to hide from it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 07:42 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
For two reasons basically:
First because the IC is only as effective as it's Rating allows it to be, it is not infallible, and it's success ratio is variable depending on what it's trying to detect, whether it is being actively countered, and the ability/prog level being used to oppose it. While the IC will always attempt to perform a task to the best of its ability (throwing all its dice into it) that doesn't guarantee success, let alone a given level of success, particularly when someone/something is actively trying to counter it's detection attempt or slip under its radar (note that the Test is only ever required when a hacker is attempting not to be noticed. the IC makes no Perception Test to locate the pdf Icon that's in plain view). Given the possibility that any of it's attempts to detect activity might have failed to detect something that was there before, all IC should be programmed to try again - just to make sure it didn't miss anything or that something hasn't slipped in while it was scanning another part of the node/system. Second, because and regardless of the presence of a hacker, the data contents of nodes especially in high traffic nodes are not static—they are constantly changing and being modified every time a user saves a file or the commlink backs up a temp file, every time a message comes in, a file is moved to another memory sector, every time someone IMs the users, etc. Meaning everytime the IC's patrol cycle hits a point where a Perception Test might be required the situation may or may not have changed, making it important that it try again anyhow (especially if something minor has changed and it detected nothing "last time around"). |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 12:13 AM
Post
#32
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats the point. It is only represented by you doing this, its not the cause of anything happening in the matrix, its the effect of its actions being represented. The cause is the code action, or the dice roll that is summarizing it. You do not play it out like in real life, where you say where you hide and how you wait till the IC walks by and so on, because there, hiding behind something is the cause of not being spotted. That is completely irrelevant in VR, the landscape is nonexisting. The only thing what counts is what the code does, and that is the dice roll. Thats why IC played out like patrolls does not work. It is regular rolls by the IC against counter rolls by the hacker, which then can be represented as the hacker hiding. But the presentation is not the cause, its the result. It is not like: GM: An IC enters the room you are in Hacker: I hide behind the shelf. GM: Ah OK, you fooled the IC by doing this. You need the dice roll for that, and for fast gameplay you can leave the representation (which is optional) and only have the diceroll (which is mandatory). And thats ultimately why you need rules for it and not just an "play it like guards on patroll". In reality, that is different. Hiding there is the cause of not being spotted and not the representation of sucessfully avoiding to be spotted. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 01:46 AM
Post
#33
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
In this case the representation is simply interpreting active processes and adapting them to a metaphor the human mind can comprehend - ie. it may be a metaphor but it never stops being a translation of what is happening, so in effect to the character there is no difference between what takes place in the "machine code background" and the VR representation.
The point is not a comparison with real life, it's a comparison with Shadowrun "real world" mechanics. The thing to keep in mind is that in SR real life were the same situation to occur the character would not successfully hide automatically either. The reason for this is that an IC is always actively and efficently looking for intruders, which is to say, were we to nitpick, that the correct comparison would be with a patrolling guard who paranoid he suspects there might be an intruder and is actively searching for evidence of intrusion (rather than just doing the rounds). Assuming you accept that parallel, it is highly unlikely a flesh and blood runner would get away with what you described in most games. At the very least the security guard would roll an Opposed Perception + Intuition Test against the character's Infiltration (or other relevant Stealth skill) + Agility. Which is to say the IC would go against the hacker's Stealth prog. I would also beg to differ on your analysis of the VR landscape (or anything therein) being non-existent. VR constructs always represent "something" that exists as a code construct, even if it's a simple virtual embelishment such as a virtual tree (or a wall, desk, mosaic, etc). It may represent a piece of completely gratuitous simsense code, but it has its own icon (a very simple one, but an icon nonetheless) and it can be manipulated. In the node it occupies memory, it has simsense data associated to it, hence it exists in all the relevant senses. As such it exists in both VR representation and in "machine code", meaning it does exist in a very concrete (well, virtual) sense. And as a hacker you can disguise your own Icon (using the Stealth program) as the simple virtual tree icon, effectively "hiding behind the tree" (in fact, what's happening in "machine code land", is that you are making your code look like the tree's icon's code to the IC) - yes, I know the analogy is flawed and what the hacker does is something that's the functional equivalent of an Invisibility spell, but my point about the tree (wall, desk, mosaic, etc) stands and the same reasoning can extend to any object, partition, or icon which makes up the node's virtual landscape (including unsculpted icons in basic UMS2). It's there, therefore it exists. So basically, I disagree. It can play out exactly like a physical intrusion. Some places/nodes will have more security doing the rounds than others. Some guards/IC will be more perceptive/sensitive/ careful than others. A guard/IC may pop up at any moment at the gamemaster's whim. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 04:29 AM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Synner, the reason I was looking at it this way was for several reasons. One is that I have done a little computer programing so when I see an illogical representation of computers I twitch. The code would not be in the simsense or the VR. That would be extremely inefficient and not useful. What I'm saying is that there are reasons for specific things being rendered. It is just like the fact that there is a reason for what is being shown on your desktop. You don''t see all the processes that are going on in the background. From your stand point they don't matter to you. You are seeing what is being displayed.
From the computer's stand point it doesn't matter that mtch to it what is being displayed. It is focused on what is going through it's CPU, RAM, and page files. THat is what it considers important. What you see is not what is being processed. It is what was already processed. The same thing would occur for VR. It is just a glorified GUI with additional sensory information. The security system doesn't need a manequin of a guard walking around to see you. It already and always knows you are there. If not then it would NEVER give you a VR display! It has to know you are there in order to be able to tell you what you see. What I'm trying to say is that VR is a metaphor for your ease. The computer doesn't care about that and it doesn't need it to function. Now a regular user doesn't care either. The only person that WOULD care is a hacker because he is trying to subvert the system. He HAS to know what is actually going on. Now if you are running this for a regular user then it doesn't really matter but if you are running it for a hacker then I think that you as the GM needs to understand the underlaying system and not fall for the metaphor. The advantage of doing so is that you can figure out way to reduce the necessary game mechanics with a few realizations. Now I can see your point about having a variety of things to do causes the variation in the dice rolls but I would do it the other way around. I would provide a threshold to notice something by the system. This is the threshold that the hacker has to beat. If the system's resources are taxed then that threshold should go down. Let's go back to the beginning of all of this. I think that without speeding up the hacking it will continue to be a drag on game play. For every edition up till now I never used them as PCs because of this. Now I think that the rules have improved to the point that we are CLOSE to being able to use them. Now I want the hacker to have enough to do to keep them entertained as a player. I think that if we can get the system simple enough to work quickly and still varied enough to make the hacker player feel they have their own niche then we would be doing well. ONe of the major diffferences between the actions of a regular pc and a hacker is the number of rolls. A regular player rolls 2-3 times a turn. The GM rolls roughly the same depending on the circumstances. The hacker is averaging twice that and so does the GM. THen there is the fact that the GM has to describe a totally new set of things just for one character. This by itself would be considered bad in most games as it isolates a player and drains game time. Some people suggest bringing more people into the matrix to solve the isolation problem but then you end up with 6+ rolls for each PC and possibly 6 x the number of PCs in the matrix in rolls for the GM. Then if someone doesn't join in they might as well go to a fine resturant while they wait! I think that the key to making the matrix and hackers a part of a regular group again is to reduce the number of rolls without making the hacker player feel like their niche has been reduced. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 09:49 AM
Post
#35
|
|||||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
But my point is that you can not reverse it. You can not say "I hide behind the VR desk" and hope to have any effect at all. It might, but it might not. As the VR world is not real, there are many projections of a code action to a VR representation. For example attacking somebody could be represented as shooting him, or hacking him with a sword or whatever. So there is no direct translation "VR representation" -> "code effect". The VR world gives metaphors. But they have far less information content than any action in the real world would have. Back to the sword example: Seeing somebody attacking somebody else with a sword in real life means exactly that. 2 people, a sword, somebody attacking. In VR the same scene would mean: 2 matrix constructs are fighting. The sword aspect is irrelevant. It could be a gun or whatever. Thus the Sword itself is just a metaphor. You cant take it for the full meaning of a sword. In real life you could back away and hope not to get hit any more, because a sword is a close combat weapon. In VR this is a completely false assumption. The sword is justa metaphoer that goes only that far. Thats why you can not hide behind a shelf in VR, more than you could hide behind a VR tennis ball. The shelf represents a certain aspect. But this aspect does certainly not include the function as a hiding space. Futhermore, you can not try to model rules using VR, because you never know what aspect of VR is "real" code-wise and what is not. Like the sword, where the "I am attacking" aspect is real, but everything else is not.
So are you suggesting that scanning IC can be represented by perception rolls (your last post) at certain time intervals (the post before, where you mentioned the virus scanner like behaviour)? That would exactly be something what I would define as patrolling IC rules.
Very good point. But you notice that the it is completely irrelevant what the hacker is hiding behind. He can hide behind a VR tree in the same way he could hide behind a VR tennis ball, or a VR glass window. And because of this abstract way things behave in the matrix, I think it is completely counter intuitive to "play out patrolling IC" instrad of just rolling the dice and then giving a nice VR description if the time is there.
And I still think it can be cooked down to the relevant stuff, because of the reasons given above. The concept of space is just not "real" enough in VR (things like Line of Sight,. what does LOS mean in a node? are you actually percieving from a certain point in a node? Furthermore: size, opacity and so on, thats just VR parameters that have nothing to do with the code) to be used properly and everything that really has an effect can be sumarized by a dice roll. Everything that has no dice roll does not have any effect at all (except it was an action that would normally have a dice roll related to it, but the roll was skipped because the test would have been so easy, like opening a file legally, or browsing data legally). And a final question: What stops the node designer from making just one VR room? |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 03:32 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Actually a more interesting question is since your VR world would have size and point of view as flexible concepts why not just render the VR world as a complex trap but the sysop sees it from the ceiling looking down at 1/20 size. Basically like seeing into a rat's maze. They see all you do. Maybe they send a guard to see how you will react. They don't need a guard to know where you are but to see how guilty you act. Maybe when you turn around they move the walls around and play with you but you never get anything useful. Maybe they set up traps instead of any real data because everyone else knows to teleport in the sytem through a VR watch construct once they reach the hallway. That gets them into the useful part of the construct while the hacker just wanders around trying to blend in. Maybe the people wearing the dark blue coat are all agents and the guards are just icons with no programming.
If your hacker believes the metaphors I hope he doesn't play in a game with a GM who knows better. ;) |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 04:15 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Madness, LUNACY, INSANITY
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 08:33 PM
Post
#38
|
|||||||||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
So far so good. We're pretty much on the same track (although not exactly).
This is where I think you're wrong. You are assuming: a) That it is the "host" system producing/giving you the VR. It isn't. It is your sim-module reading/interpreting "VR tags" (sort of like html tags on a webpage) associated to the software in the node you are logged onto and displaying them to you in simsense. Your system is creating the virtuality, not the "host" system. When you use a reality filter, your sim-module simply overlays its set of defaults over the VR tags it is recieving and you're not even subject to the metaphor the host system is set to. Those VR tags are built into any sculpted system on principle, and were the clever security programmer to decide not to give an IC an Icon at all (should make it invisible huh?), your commlink would still read it as an IC program and use a UMS default icon to display it to you - assuming your commlink detected its presence in the host system you are accessing. b) That VR is a host system-based interface rather than user-based interface. It isn't. Following on from above, every time you see something in the Matrix it means your system "detected" it, rather than the other way round. When you see an IC/guard it means your commlink has detected an IC program, not that the system it is on is showing you it has a guard. You detect it, not the other way round (yes, the system is trying to detect you but that has no bearing on what you see, only on what it sees which is another issue entirely). c) That a security system is a cohesive whole/entity. It isn't. The SR decided that programs were to be treated as independent of one another (though interlinked), you may not like what that translates to, but that's how the basic system was concieved. It approaches the security system as several different programs running in parallel, doing different things (firewall, IC, virus scanner, spam filter, encryption, etc). Each such program functions independently (each has its own scanning cycle, search criteria, etc as it were). Each is an autonomous entity - there are good reasons for not having full integration. An appropriate parallel is how today your Windows OS or Linux needs Norton/McAfee/Panda/whatever to actually find the virus or a Firewall plug in to keep out undesireables. It could potentially be set to turn off if something unauthorized alters the registry, but by itself its not going to do anything against that something. Normally it isn't even aware what that something is or what it's actually doing. It just sits there. d) That the "system" is omnipotent and proactive. It isn't. It is neither omnipotent, self-aware, or capable of decisions. It is reactive at best. Following on from above, the node might be "aware" (it registers activity at least) it is being used, and whether or not the user is legitimately logged on, but that's as far as it goes - the node is basically an OS and just sits there registering activity in its logs (unless of course the owners have programmed it to not send IC but turn itself off at the first sign of trouble). When something like this is flagged by the system it activates a specific program/IC and then individually sent to verify the inconsistency/suspicious activity (ie. sent out on patrol ). If some inconsistency shows using out of place/suspicious the appropriate program/IC is activated to verify and deal with the problem (possibly alerting other countermeasures). e) That security hacker using the security system is instantly and permanently aware of everything that happens in the node. He isn't. He is only human and in SR there's no "reading the code" like in the Matrix. He's just as limited in his perception (by his own simmodule and the amount of sensory information the human mind can process and interpret) as the hacker who is hacking in (ie. looking from a top down perspective doesn't mean he'll see everything). Wha the does have going for him is any legitimate Agents and IC that are helping him look for intruders.
We disagree. Regular users will use VR if it suits them, their professions or their interests. It is no longer the be all and end all of interfaces but its hasn't been put aside. Regular users stand to gain very much by using VR in certain contexts. You might not find an office pool of secretaries slumped back in their chairs anymore, but biochemists will be working in VR environments all the time. Regular security guards won't have Wired 2 but VR means you don't have to be a rigger to get more out of a security system. Hackers use AR and VR as it suits them, just like everyone else. VR immersion is better in some circumstances (especially if you're a normal joe hacking from your mom's basement and don't have any intention of getting reflex enhancements).
As I mention above the metaphor is largely irrelevant - so much so that you can modify your system to have your metaphor apply all the time. Every hacker knows that.
I'd agree with this solution if we were talking about a quick resolution system (which I expect there will be something of the kind in Unwired), or if the system didn't want all programs working on a host treated separately. That is not the case.
Again, I disagree. I've been playing SR4 for more than two years now and we've never felt it slows play significantly. Or maybe I should clarify: It only slows play down any more than a magician performing an astral recon or a rigger remote rigging a drone, which to me means it isn't a problem. Then again I don't demand rolls for every single action (use of a program) or for every single option. I'll get Serbitar's stuff a little later.[I] |
||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 09:40 PM
Post
#39
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I still think you're both limiting yourselves a great deal with your assumptions that VR and AR are only "mere" GUI interfaces, independant of the as-yet-undefined operating system underneath - not of the host, but of the Matrix infrastructure itself. If the Matrix was more like, say a server, then both the hacker and the sysop and the host would all have to reside in the Matrix and follow the laws of its operating system. There wouldn't be much need for distinctions between pemission rights of hackers vs systems, but rather some relatively-believable reason of why those decisions were made in the first place when the Matrix was established. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 31 2007, 10:26 PM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
A plug-in, by definition, is not a seperate program but rather an augmentation to enhance the abilities of a larger program. In this case, adding a firewall plugin to an OS means that the OS is managing that firewall and that it can draw on OS resources, and perhaps more importantly, OS access-rights and whatever else the OS can do that other programs can't. There is a *huge* push to fully integrated secure operating systems and even windows is feeling the push of consumer demand in this area. How many different distributions does Linux have? These distributions exist for two important differences: style and integrated features. Firewalls are built right into the kernel of Linux operating systems with no need to draw on an outside program. The Unix environment itself manages protections and rights so that no program can draw resources from another unless they belong to the same "package". If the Linux distribution isn't secure enough for your needs, your better off getting another one. This tendency should improve over the next 60 years or so. If, on the other hand, you believe that in the next 60 years, that some version of Windows has become the supreme universal operating system of the entire world... well, that would explain a lot. --- Independant Point: From a Game Design perspective, does any of it matter? A player isn't trying to defeat a program, he's trying to hack into a system and (often) steal their files. What's important is how hard that task is to do and what the results are. The hacking system should center on hackers and systems, rather than an intense cybercombat system against a certain program that's more or less irrelevent to the player. If a user adds more firewalls to his system, he isn't necessarily putting a series of tiered tasks before an intruder, so much as making the system as a whole harder to get into - that's his goal. What we should be testing therefore, is the hacker's goal (getting into the system and making adjustments and accessing critical files) vs the administrator's goals (keeping hackers out, protecting all files, recieving warning of hacking attempts). Focussing on the micro-management of each component involved in this goal is like having rolls for a street sam to draw his gun or a mage to search for the spirit he wants to summon. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 10:32 PM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I think this supports Garrowolf's argument. If its not active, it's not self-aware, it's not making decisions. It shouldn't "send ice". It shouldn't roll dice. It makes sense to have a constant threshold, and the more secure you make the system the higher this threshold is. It's not actively making decisions. It's not being proactive. It's just damn difficult to hack because there are so many upgrades to the system. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 10:39 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I wonder how "played out like guards" scanning IC should be treated when doing AR hacking.
Any ideas anyone? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 10:48 PM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
In the SR4 artwork, the hacker's AR shows two circles with a line connecting them. I presume this is the graphic representation of Exploit connecting from one node to another node. A "security guard" could represent a concentration of red dots within that circle. As you hack in, the line gets connected to another circle. As you do so, the red dots concentrate on that circle... the more dots concentrate on that area, the more likely you are to be caught. Alternatively or in addition, you could have some kind of general awareness rating (as a bar graph on the side of the display) showing the general level of verification requests that are being made. The more there are, the more suspicious the system is of you. How to represent the Stealth system is a little harder, but for some reason we treat hackers as a "system" rather than a "collection of programs" so we can just assume that the little red dots move slower toward you if you have a high stealth rating. Alterntively, if all OSes work the way Synner describes, you could have little blue dots of your own (representing your stealth programs) flooding the node and fighting the little red dots (or just attracting them elsewhere). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 10:49 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
GitS? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:01 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
@cetiah
Now I mean, how do you play out the "run and hide"-stuff that "played out like guards IC" needs in AR? We are talking about VR actions to hide from guards. What do you do in AR? Except from rolling dice. How do ypu play out the hiding from Guards? If there are no patrolling IC rules, because it should be played out in VR, what do you do in AR? @Rotbart I think I forgot everything in the movie. No idea what you mean. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:20 PM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The movie? There's already a second one... and two Seasons worth of Episodes, plus a 'concluding' movie. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:24 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Whatever, Ive seen some stand alone complex series, but I still dont know what you are talking about.
Why are you always trying to not contribute to the topic, but still post something? Posting phrases doesnt help anyone. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:27 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
I think Ghost In the Shell is a contribution.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:30 PM
Post
#49
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Ohhhh.... Ghost in the Shell. Geez. A google search of GitS brought up something completely different. Wasn't Ghost in the Shell virtual reality, though? I don't remember. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 31 2007, 11:31 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You were searching for graphic interface and iconography references, which there are quite some within the setting of GitS.
PS: Are you still being fed? |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th May 2026 - 12:27 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.