Is looting and pillaging the norm?, Or is there room for some decency? Options

[Tiger Eyes]

My team looted... once. Many, many years ago. The boxes of drugs we picked up had something else hidden in them, a cutting edge deck that was being smuggled... well, hell, I don't even remember all the particulars. I do remember the three different corporate swat teams that came after us, the two different apartments we had blown up, the injuries & death (almost lost our street sam, lost a mage) and having to leave Seattle for awhile.

We finally sold the damn thing for a huge loss, considering the cost of losing almost all our gear, the cost of healing several members of our team, and the cost of pulling in a lot of favors from our contacts. We actually lost one of our fixers who refused to deal with us ever again, due to the 30 people who lost their lives in the fire when one of our apartments was blown up & the whole building burned to the ground.

Multiple games and characters later, we still don't loot. Ever.

As for being polite to Johnsons and fixers... well, we've had to re-build our contact network from the ground up. Actually, we've had to do that several times (due to stupidity and rapid relocations) so once we've made a contact, we tend to treat them very, very well. If you make your characters work hard for something, they'll appreciate it even more.

[Moirdryd]

No survivors doesnt build a rep.. any rep... because, well, there are no survivors to tell anyone who whacked those ganger kids. If no-one knows you've done something you cant get any glory for it. Now when the gangers get nasty and the Sam pulls a pred and off him in one motion, perhaps capping two of his friends as they leg it... then you gte a rep. Sure that gang will try and hit you and when that doesnt work then they clear out when you check in!

[Ravor]

(1) Looting

Well personally I don't see a problem with mild looting, but as others have said, remember that every second you spend looting during the Run is another second that security has to find/kill you. Plus, somethings are simply too hot to handle, as Tiger Eyes' story demostrates. (I don't think it makes sense for the hammer to fall as hard as it did in his case, but it does get the point across nicely.)

(2) MDK

You know, I never understood why so many people get so uptight about their Runner's packing Gel Rounds/Tasers and eating cold dinners because lighting a fire would kill some bugs or something. Remember that Shadowrun isn't about being a good-guy or some rebel hero fighting the good fight against the forces of evil, it is about playing someone who gets paid money to shoot people in the face! Besides, exactly why would an exec at aMega care more about the fate of some nameless security guards who couldn't even do the simple job they were paid perfectly good money to do over that of the fancy 'do-dad' that cost more to research and produce a security guard can ever hope to make in his entire pitiful life?

No if he decides it is worth the bottom line to hunt you down, it will be based off of one of two things, (1) is spending money to track down the Runners and 'do-dad' likey to pay off or is it simply throwing good money after bad, and (2) how pissed is he over the yearly bonus that the Runners just cost him.

Now that isn't saying that there shouldn't be a chance that killing some grunt might come back to haunt them, but think about this for a moment, how many of us could track someone down who had killed/maimed a loved one and extract revenge? How many of us could even manage to pay someone else to do so? I'd wager dollars to donuts that the answer is not very damn many of us and the same will still hold true in 2070.

Now to bring it back to the example about killing every last gang member, although I'm not sure that shooting fleeing gang members is really a very good idea anywhere except possibly in a Z Zone (And I'm not sure it really pays even there.) I really don't see the gangs well 'ganging up' agaisnt the Runners, but lets just hope that they don't ever find themselves in a situation where they might need some help from the gangs...

(3) Mr J's social graces

Well I have to agree that this can be a problem if taken too far by the Runners, although any Johnson worth his salt understands that he is dealing with very dangerous people who for whatever reason can't or won't either live like decent wage-slave or even sign up as a corp/government thug, so he'll most likely live with and even expect some level of abuse from the cromed psychos sitting across the table from him. But yeah, if they cross the line that the Johnson has set, then have him walk.

[Glyph]

Looting and extra violence have their place - shadowrunners should be scrounging for all of the cred they can get, unless the run is of a type that specifically forbids it (leave no trace, etc.). And there's nothing wrong with killing a bunch of gangers and sending a message that the PCs shouldn't be messed with. That might inspire vengeance if done against, say, one of the syndicates. But street punks are likelier to leave the characters alone after that (but woe to the runners if any of them catch them when they are wounded or otherwise vulnerable - but that goes even if they haven't geeked a lot of them).

But remember that as soon as the runners hit a target, the clock starts ticking for reinforcements to show up, so taking too much time snagging all of the commlinks or hunting for the clerk who hid behind the desk can wind up costing them big time. The initial opposition should be balanced more or less to the PCs, but the reinforcements should be something they need to run from.


As far as rudeness to the Johnson, it should cost them if they do it excessively, as runners live and die by their contacts. But the Johnson won't be expecting a lot of polish from 'runners (at least, not from typical ones). Runners tend to consist of guys with tie-dyed shirts and green mohawks, people who sharpen their cyberspurs at the table, and in general, street trash. Hell, look at SR1, when the archetypes introduced themselves. Notice how lots of them make some kind of threat to the Johnson? So don't give your Johnson expectations that are too high. But if the group is rude enough, have the Johnson walk. Then do like another poster said - have the fixer chew them out, then tell them to mark off three months of living expenses that they incurred waiting for another job.

[Kagetenshi]

Also, a suggestion: every time you start wondering who would give high-paying jobs to Runners with a reputation for significant amounts of violence, go look at the cover of Blood in the Boardroom until you stop wondering.

~J

[Thane36425]

[Sir_Psycho]

Keep in mind that Johnsons are generally slightly afraid of shadowrunners, dressing up all crazy with the Muscles showing, Cyber-limb's shining, visible weapons, wearing combat gear and with steely looks and an impersonal demeanour can work in one's favour.

Also, Shadowrun is cyberpunk, and while corp affiliated criminals will often dress down, Shadowrunners are in a rare position in the sixth world of not being tied to any particular corporate beast, and as SINless, can live free of some of the strictures and trappings of society. The shadowrunners aren't your standard criminal, they're often also the epitome of eccentric individualists.

Of course this doesn't apply to all shadowrunners, but even stealthy characters can get away with it. I have a covert ops specialist shadowrunner from europe who has all the usual subtle surveillance gear/wear, but also has Kid Stealth legs and a Cybertail. Shadowrunners are often grade A freaks, and don't fit into the rest of society easily.

[Vaevictis]

1. Get used to looting. It's going to happen. If you put something valuable enough out there, they'd be foolish if they didn't at least consider taking it. The correct way to deal with this is to equip their opposition with "level" appropriate gear, and to recognize that there are certain costs associated with disposing of the gear -- fences charge an awful lot to move contraband, and they will charge whichever end of the deal (seller or buyer) that will bear it, if not both.

That 100k :nuyen: cyber arm is worth a lot less used (about 50%), and is worth a lot less than that if you're selling it to a fence who will probably only pay 25 cents on the dollar because he's taking a lot of risks in moving it -- it might need repairs, it might need to be "scrubbed" so it's not tracable, it's stolen goods so he has to be careful when moving it, etc.

2. These are shadowrunners. Get used to violence. If you really have a problem with it, you need to talk to them out of character, and you need to ask yourself if Shadowrun is the right game for you.

3. Johnsons are businessmen. They need to get a job done. Most will accept a certain amount of abuse in order to get that job done. All of them have a line, and all of them react differently when that line is crossed. Some will walk out. Some will arrange for you to be disposed of after the run, justifying it as "tying up loose ends." Some will refused to do business with you in the future. Some will do business with you, but consider you to be an extremely expendable asset, and send you on a suicide mission without telling you. A few Johnsons (with scales) will just eat you. :D

[ShadowDragon]

I have a bit of experience with these issues as a GM.

1) Take anything not bolted down and assume the consequences can be dealt with. (Like taking comlinks for the sole purpose of selling them later.)

They used to. Then I gave them a rude awakening through tracking devices, AKA RFIDs. When they try to sell little things like cheap commlinks or street line specials, their contacts laugh at them and their reputation takes a hit.

2) Be excessively violent. Example A, if they get attacked while in a gang's territory the players slaughter the gangers then chase down anyone trying to flee (then do #1 with the bodies, luckily organs count as bolted down). Example B, the guy's already hiding under his desk, but they decide to kick him in the head for no reason.

I thought I discouraged this by subtly informing them that their reputation is influenced by such behavior. Then they slaughtered a group of gangers, leaving a bloody stack of body parts in the road, right where the tow truck was meeting them. Naturally I hit them with a point of notoriety, which did the trick. I hope lol

3) Disrespect Johnsons by being rude and acting like they call all the shots. (I'd have the Johnson just walk out if I wasn't trying to establish certain characters and events for the plot)

I've stressed that shadowrunners are supposed to be professionals, and they've mostly taken this to heart for negotiations. There have been a few instances of social blunders, but they've been in character, so instead of the Johnson walking out he'll react somewhere between ignoring it and giving a stern warning, as appropriate. Then I'll tell the face to make an etiquette roll to smooth things over and/or subtract a couple dice from the face's negotiation test. That way they know that acting like an ass will lead to less money, but the session isn't ruined.

[Sir_Psycho]

I just played a game with a first time SR player. I made a traditional two gangers mugging woman in alley scenario, to whet the players appetite, and refamiliarize myself with GM'ing combat.

He walked into the alley where he heard the sound, a combat involved two turns, one was the player blowing the Ork's brains all over the alley with his manhunter, and the woman having her throat slit, the second involved the other ganger having his brain fried by 7 net successes on a Deadly damage Manabolt. (The woman's slit throat was healed with spell, for those of you who cared [i didn't])

But that's neither here nor there. After escorting the woman out into the street, to wait with her for her boyfriend to pick her up in his car, he went back to the alley to get her bag, and decided to loot the bodies. I didn't even let him take the bloodied knife, saying he would get blood on his clothes (he was off to meet a girl). However he took 25 :nuyen:, some BTL's and the brain-fried thug's leather jacket. So he walks out from the alley holding the girl's purse and the Ganger who slit her throat's leather jacket over his shoulder. Well he didn't need it, I suppose.

[hyzmarca]

[Pendaric]

I have mature players so they don't try to carry away the kitchen sink because they know unless they can use it for cover they will probably get shot by being slow.
The AD&D rip the nails out style falls down in a high paced run, they simply don't have time. Other than that expect reasonable looting, where if they see a chance the players will take it.
I had the team hijack a smugglers GMC Banshee to cross borders after a double cross, one player was desperate to sell it but having run out of fuel in the desert and doing things on the fly he was hitting brickwalls, eventually walked away.
I always try to plan ahead to create realistic reasons to stop full scale looting.

[Kagetenshi]

[cetiah]

[Moirdryd]

I fail to see how saving the woman's life gets you killed. She doesnt know your name. Where you crash. That you're a Shadowrunner. Or indeed anything about you. On the other hand after a quick go through her bag while retrieving it, you have possibley her number, a look at her Corp ID telling you who she is and what she does (if you dont get that in the idle chat waiting, just dont give anything away yourself) and BAM! You've just earned yourself a Rating 1 Corperate Secretry Contact!

[Snow_Fox]

[Kagetenshi]

She knows your face, that you have a gun, and that you just left several bodies in the alley. If you wait for her boyfriend, he also knows those same things and is in a better position to remember details about you.

If she was a corporate secretary at a meaningful corp, she wouldn't have been off-territory for you to save her anyway.

~J

[Thane36425]

[Kagetenshi]

There's a difference between "saving someone" and "saving someone and then waiting around with them for someone else to show up".

~J

[hyzmarca]

The solution is simple. Rescue her because it is the right thing to do and then kill her because it is the safe thing to do.

[warrior_allanon]

1) Looting: Everyone does it to some extent, especially if the character is just getting started and in 3ed went with the lowest amount of money on the priority system. You keep the better weapons and ammo that your able to scrounge and sell what you already had.

2) Excessive Violence: I cant really say anything to much about this, the team i ran with for the last 6 years was nicknamed "The Mighty Ducks" because no matter the situation we were always WILLING to lay down massive mayhem in the effort to get out. We would lay plans and eventually got so good at silent entry that we didnt necesarily have to have the heavy weapons, but whenever things dropped in the pot, we were ready willing and able to put down a base of fire that has taken out attack helos.

3) Organ legging: we had a street doc that we would go through for that, got us some pretty fair deals and then we would sit on the rooftops in the barrens where the bodies were usually dumped taking ghouls out for bounty.

As others have said remember encumbrance, and i'll say also remember their flaws. use their flaws against them and get them to where they are particularly paranoid and enter the game saying to themselves "Ok whats the GM gonna do to screw us over today."

[cetiah]

By the way, I wrote this thread for this exact situation, so that I clear up misunderstandings in the "tone" of the game based on Mr Johnson's personality, allow different tones (with different assumptions) for different missions, and be sure to reward the players when I set assumptions (like no looting) that, from their perspective, just makes things harder.

This was a system I wrote up to vary the runs a bit, with certain Johnsons that won't allow theft ("It's unprofessional and distracting to the mission objectives"), won't allow murder ("I need expert thieves, not hired thugs."), or that won't allow excessive publicity ("If I wanted big explosions, I could have used my own guys.").

Maybe it will help. Maybe not. Either way, I suggest checking it out.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Here's the way I look at it:

There are two kinds of looting. There is reasonable and unreasonable looting. "Reasonable" is defined as risk versus reward. There is always some opportunity for reasonable looting, even if you're literally being shot at by the sec team and on your way out the door. It's a free action (generally) to grab the expensive vase next to the door on your way out.

A ganger tries to shoot you and gets geeked? And he has a cyberarm?

Unless an HTR is about to drop straight down on you, it's worth the time to have the sammie step on his chest and have the troll rip the cyberarm off. That's a whole frigging boatload of :nuyen:

Same with comlinks and streetline specials. If the group is new, or desperate for :nuyen: , they have all the reason to take the risks - they're judging their Risk Vs. Reward ratio, and judging it nessessary, or at least worth it.

If they're hungry for money, chances are that it's the DM's fault - pay them more, and they may stop taking so many risks on looting. However, the following will always apply:

1: A free comlink is a free comlink. It's expensive, portable, and can be turned off to shut down it's homing device.
2: A free gun is a free gun. These are always worth taking, especially if it's like an Ares Alpha or something. If you want to give your sec guards SMGs that aren't really worth looting, pick the worst SMG, not the best. (Likewise, don't give any NPC that will come into the player's line of sight ANYTHING that you aren't willing to see in the player's hands. If you give an NPC a Panther XXL, they will drop everything they have on him to get it.)
3: Paydata. Unless (and sometimes if) Mr. Johnson specifies "Nothing extra", the Hacker is always going to take the time to run at least a cursory look for extra paydata. And unless Mr. Johnson set up a run on his own corp (very rare), he won't have any way of knowing.
4: Anytime you describe an inviting doorway, ie, "Prototype Lab", "Armory" "Drone Hangar", or whatever, in the player's line of sight, that's practically like saying "Dragon's Horde Here! No dragon attached!" If you don't want them going there, don't put it there, it's that easy, folks.

Of course, again, it's risk Vs. Reward. If they're being paid 100,000 :nuyen: for the job, the temptation to loot the armory or prototype lab will be greatly decreased. If they're only being paid 10 grand.. Shit, I'd screw Mr. Johnson completely and go for the bigger prize! 10 grand won't pay the bills - a juicy prototype, the haul from selling off an armory's worth of weapons, or the grab of expensive drones (or dare I even hope: Vehicles?) from the hangar? Hells fucking YES!


The second type of looting is compulsive looting. That's where players compulsively strip a place down to it's parts, rip out people's cyber, and organleg the bodies. If it could concievably bring in a single :nuyen: , they take a ridiculous risk to have it.

Compulsive looting is a self-correcting problem, but don't be asinine about trying to correct it. Yes, a security team will show up. Eventually.

Even an urban SWAT team responding to a terrorist crisis can take up to an hour or two to get their asses in gear, pull down the relavent maps, formulate a plan and go. Even in 2070, I can't see a response time being shorter than thirty minutes on anything.

Nothing (except automated systems) can be 100% at any time. Even a sec-rigger or hacker will need to be kicked out of bed/out of the break room, drop into the system, review the situation (or lack of information thereon), get airborne drones into position, get the drone van with the Steel Lynxes into position, etcetera.

Rememeber, most corp buildings have radio-blocking wallpaper. This works against outside security as well. If the Runners hit a place, cut off their outside access and kill everyone, it'll take awhile for the response to get there.

But if they spend the time to strip the place completely bare, someone will show up.


As far as psychopathic response to Gangs - that's to be expected. If a Gang tries to mess with you, you waste them all save one - and tell him he needs to run, very, very fast.

They won't bother you again, and if they do, you do the legwork, find out who they are, where they live, and hit them with about 12 kilos of C-12.

Urban renewal on the cheap. Nobody's going to care if a gang from the barrens gets fragged.


Now, as for other forms of psychopathy, it's not good. You kick someone just to be bad, it'll get you a reputation for being mean as a rattler. That's Notoriety there, and it works against you in many situations.


Oh, and bad-mouthing Mr. Johnson is a no-no unless you're going to kill him anyway because he double-crossed you. It means you'll probably be double-crossed, and possibly your fixer will either hang you out to dry or he'll wind up dead. Don't ever, ever do that.

[lorechaser]

Stealth RFID tags are very cheap, and very small.

It's perfectly reasonable that the corps put RFID tags on almost everything important they have, which triggers alarms when you exit. Either silent "Track this person" type alarms, or something more immediate and lethal.

[Kagetenshi]

It's also perfectly reasonable that Shadowrunners carry around some foil thick enough to block RFID tags, which is a really not very large amount of the stuff.

~J