 What equipment do i need to..., automate my car? |
  |
 Jan 30 2007, 12:46 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716  |
Ok im working on a character based off the movie "Transporter". He is basically really kick ass at driving and has a military background and acts as a courier of anything for the right price.
I've baught him a westwind 3k sports car. I'd like to be able to just give it commands to make it drive itself anywhere there are roads. What kind of equipment and programs would i need? I dont want to ever physically remote control it or jump into it. Im thinking rigger mods, and some autosofts (manuever, defense, electronic warfare?), and I have no idea what kinda skills i would need to give it commands(computer? How easy will it be to hack? Im not sure what the heck it counts as or how to defend it. Whats the best kind of Agent to put into it?(analyze/atttack?) It would be awesome to walk out of place or be able to run away from danger and be able to call my car to me but do you think thats stupid compared to how vulnerable it would make my very expensive car? |
 |
 
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 01:15 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Piloting abilty comes out of the box, you dont need rigger adption if you dont want to jump into it.
You only need to install additional autosoft to make it better. Unless you raise all the matrix attributes to 5 or 6 and install some agents, it will be a piece of cacke for any hacker to hack. Unfortunately (depending on whom you ask) there are no rules in BBB for that, so its totally up to your GM. But oyur car is vulnerable no matter what you do. Every car is hackable. You dont need the command software to give it commands that the pilot is executing using his own ratings. If you want some extensive ideas and explanations and want to consider house rules, read sgm v1.1 in my signature. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 02:47 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
Couldn't you just downgrade the signal? You wouldn't be able to talk to it from outside the vehicle, but it would be a programable drone that someone has to be in (or use a data jack) to hack into.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 03:02 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Talk to your GM about purchasing a Maneuver autosoft for the car. It will come in handy for chase scenes, where you'll be rolling Pilot + Maneuver if the car is acting on its own.
While Serbiter's right, that should be enough on its own, I tend to require my players to pre-program a course using their own Navigation skill, otherwise I assume the car will follow all appropriate traffic laws and such, always use the most obvious freeways, etc. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 03:02 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 14-January 07 From: Zurich Orbital Member No.: 10,642 |
In theory, the car's internal computer would have a Firewall equal to the computer's rating. However, mark those words "in theory." Remember, a rating 3 Signal is over a km of range, more than enough to call it like it's the friggen batmobile.
Far as I know, YOU would need the Command program, not the car. But I can't imagine needing to roll to give your own car a command. The hacking rules are more than a little fluid. Depending on your GM, it could be very easy to hack or nigh impossible (you can't hack a node that's blasting down the street at 90 mph). I personally haven't had to deal with it yet, so I couldn't give you any examples. Though, in my game, if you put a sufficient Black Hammer IC in there that fries a few unsuspecting hackers, your car is going to have quite the rep. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 03:03 AM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I still believe that making these less hackable by eliminating their wireless capability goes against the "Wireless World" theme of the game. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 03:05 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
You sick bastard! :D |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 02:00 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 14-January 07 From: Zurich Orbital Member No.: 10,642 |
Why thank you.
I try my best. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 03:00 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
"Yeah, I got the 20" rims, full surround audio, ARO fuzzy dice..."
"That's nice. My car's an Ultraviolet System." "Dude..." "I save a bunch of money on car insurance." |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 04:16 PM
Post
#10
|
|||||
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I don't. It's pretty basic. "I don't want this to be hackable remotely. Ever. I'm willing to sacrifice wireless capability for that security." Done. Hell, the corps do it - that's why they still have wired, disconnected mainframes and RF-inhibiting wallpaper. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 30 2007, 04:20 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
In my SR4 world, cars would have to have wireless capacity. Dictated by state and police to track vehicle, watch speeds and stop them if needed.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 04:59 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
First, you want to upgrade your Pilot program, which is limited by your car's System rating. System begins at 3, so you'll need to raise it to whatever level you want your Pilot at. Hardware upgrade costs are on pg. 240. Upgrading your Pilot is on pg. 228. You'll probably also want to load the Maneuver Autosoft, on the same page.
If you want the autopilot to work, I think you'll have to have some wireless connectivity. If Gridguide is still built into the road, Signal 0 should be enough. Issuing it commands will have to be done within 3 meters, or while physically jacked in (inside the car, I'd imagine), so no changing course halfway through the trip. This still leaves the car susceptible to hacking through Gridguide, however. It's my official position as a GM that any car driving on the road without a wireless signal will be quickly flagged and Lone Star will be dispatched. A license may allow you to drive manually without wireless on, but an autopiloted car would likely be disabled and confiscated. As has already been stated, you don't need rigger adaptation unless you plan to jump in. You might as well buy all the autosofts you can (don't buy the attack ones if it has no weapons). Issuing commands requires no skill role if you're the legitimate user, but if someone hacks it, you'll want the right skills to get control back. That's a whole separate discussion. Hacking a normal vehicle is easy. Lowering your signal and raising your Firewall is step one in protecting it. After that, agents running various attack programs are your best defense short of hiring a hacker to be on call to defend it (or learning how to yourself). For instance, at least one Agent 6, with analyze, Armor, Black Hammer, Medic, and Track would be a good deterrent against hackers. Just remember that hacking programs are restricted, so don't get caught. I actually like the dilemma in convenience vs. vulnerability that exists with wireless access in SR. Players complain about it, but it just adds another thing to fight over in SR, and that makes it more fun. A good hacker can keep his commlink safe, but he has to do it actively. It's just like having doors and windows in your house. Would you seal yourself in just for the security? Okay, it's not a perfect analogy, but it's getting there. Dread Polack |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 05:16 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
I agree with this; It may be worth talking with the GM about putting in a "false transponder," sort of like carrying two commlinks on your person. The dummy one on active broadcasts social networking data, carries some music files, and some illegal pr0n... Then the hidden one with maximum IC, hacker utilities, and your chrome. Why not slap a second one on the car? Typical signal, typical pilot, slightly above average firewall... and no connection to the car at all. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 05:21 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
A good solution. The dummy signal would have to be convincing, so there would have to be some sort of roll-off, but easy enough to attempt.
Dread Polack |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 06:22 PM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I personally believe that you should never send a computer to do an RFID's job. Remote identity check? RFID. Check vehicle registration? RFID. Speed? Time response of sequential RFID pings. RFID work without power, they can be embedded within structural components, and are so tiny & cheap that dozens of redundant RFIDs can be scattered throughout a vehicle. A combination of secure & regular RFID can even validate an identity by cross referencing the response from a public (non-secure) RFID against a database to look up the secure RFID code and then checking that response. Essentially a public/private key pair. Cars should operate without a remotely operable OS. Crash 2.0 would make people leery of network-connected vehicles. Crash 3.0 would have a much higher immediate death-toll if every vehicle on the road turned into an unguided projectile laden with hostages. Remote disabling of vehicle? Too useful not to have, but no reason to have the huge public safety risk of a remote-accessible vehicle. And the VOR chip; Vehicle OverRide circuit, a hard-coded circuit on the Pilot CPU with a dedicated antenna that gives the Pilot an irrestistable command to pull over. It does not allow remote operation beyond "pull over." It also triggers a 911-type call if the vehicle is Comm equipped to confirm it is a valid police action. Just as hackable as anything else but less chance of public mayhem. IMO Gridguide is a power and information broadcast system, not a remote pilot. It provides information to the vehicle's autonomous autopilot. It is a continuous stream of info that would easily be addressed by megabit-level bandwidth. Heck, half the navigational value is from RFIDs embedded in the road, containing latitude & longitude. The only receiver on GridGuide is for the RFID scanners to generate the bill. It almost always includes a parallel public net access system but that is more a matter of shared easement. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 06:40 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
So you could, in theory, scatter about 80 or 90 RFID chips through a car's frame and by measuring their individual pingback, you could get a wireframe ARO of the car's body?
Neat. Would also be useful for the mechanic who has to assess structural damage. Plus, you could encode the vehicle's VIN number into each and every one of those little bastards. Good luck digging them out - if they're hardened chips (and if they have something as important as the VIN on them, they will be) they'll be immune to the chip-wiper, and probably buried inside the structural members. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 08:33 PM
Post
#17
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
I would like this too if we had any way to measure "convinience" in the game. In a game, a player will always trade convinience for security - it's a no brainer. In real life, people tend to do it the other way around, more often than not. In real life, there's a tangible immediate benefit to convinience and none to security. (There are benefits, just not immediate and tangible.) In a game, you have the opposite situation - there's no immediate and tangible benefit to convinience, but you can instantly compare the scores or roll the tests to see the advantages of security, which will likely be tested once the game starts, in a very real way. My computer pretty much sucks if it wasn't connected to the internet. I might as well not have it. I couldn't use it for communication, I couldn't use it for research, it loses a lot in entertainment value, and there's a lot of little things I do in my life that don't seem related (like playing Shadowrun) that would suffer a reduction in quality/quantity without my internet connection. There's no way to reflect this in a shadowrun game right now. There's also no reason not to assume that as time goes on and the technology curve advances to the point where we all have Personal Area Networks, the inconvinience of not being wirelessly connected would be just too high. You might as well not have the device at all for all the good it does you. I don't think its fair to compare driving a car in 2070 to driving a car today as a proper analogy. Here's a partial list of some features that are cutting-edge today but no doubt would be considered barbaric by 2070 standards: Infrared Night-vision Assist System, Radar-based Cruise Control which partially drives itself, Radar-based monitor of other cars speed and information, Auto-hazard detect up to 500 ft., Seats with massage settings, Seats that mold itself around the driver, Satellite radio, Automatic locks, windows, and doors, Keyless entry and ignition, Heads up display and customizable display overlays, Real-time GPS navigation, auto-correcting for hazards and traffic, Complex waypoint trip navigation, electrochromatic glass that adjusts to whatever lighting level you want, PC Card slots and Ipod adapters, Voice control, Auto-seats that adjust for air-bag effectiveness during crashes, Tele-monitoring system in case of theft, being locked out, collision, or other emergency. Almost none of these features are absolutely dependant on the car having wireless access, but as I said these are all available on the market right now. Once the infrastructure is in place for limitless wireless capability and all-inclusive Matrix to coordinate information, there's no reason not to assume that what we might consider "simple operation" today would in every way convievable exploit the technological conditions available to maufacturers, distributors, and consumers. The BMW M5 has 279 controls that can be adjusted by the user with the pressing of a couple of buttons using their menu system - everything from climate control, to seating adjustments, to how much resistance you want in your power steering, to how much horsepower you want to be using at any given time. 279 options. While that's very convinient, I could see someone in 2070 making the case that some of these options should be changed "on the fly" by gridguide - so that your car can automatically adjusts its traction control to the road conditions so that you will never notice them. I could easily see these settings saved in your comlink and shared by all of your devices. There are others I could see it adjusting based on gridguide information. The Bercedes Benz S550 is designed so that you plug your cellphone right into the car, and then its internal systems sync with it. You can access cellphone controls through an interface in the arm rest. I see no reason that cars in 2070 wouldn't have a similiar feature, done wirelessly, and be even more convinient. The Maybach 57s has a "Mobile Executive Office" for professionals who spend more time in their car than out of it. It includes a wireless internet router and office features like a color printer with bluetooth capability. The radar-based auto-pilot listed above (which right now is only good for managing itself in stop-and-go traffic and can't steer) could easily work by wirelessly communicating with other cars on the road, preventing collisions, while allowing much faster speeds. It doesn't matter whether you or I think that's a good idea or not - but there's no reason it shouldn't work in Shadowrun. Living without wireless capability in Shadowurn should utterly suck and make things very difficult. I give a -2 penalty for most devices operating without wireless capability, and I still think that's being pretty generous.
Yeah, that's all pretty cool. You're right about that. But there's no reason you shouldn't have both. A seperate comlink connection would be both practical, realistic, and convinient. RDIF would be a necessary security feature. I could easily see an RDIF that transmits something like a Vehicle Identification Number which, in turn, would have a full profile on the Matrix. Of course, it would be much more useful if you could just have something that transmitted the driver's SIN (and all passangers, too). The gridguide couldn't rely simply on RDIFs, though. The problem with RDIFs is that they're not easy to update or switch out information. You couldn't use them, for example, to send weather data, or to amber-alerts (or whatever "public awareness" notices become important in 2070). You're right about your "pull over" comments, but the problem is that I can see consumors/manufacturers/distributors coming up with all sorts of similiar commands, creating a demand for this wireless car hookup. We're seeing it today. Automatic doors that open for you? Automatic locks and ignition which start the car when you approach? Hell, why not just program the car so that it comes to you? Hey, let's make the car so that it can park itself without needing you to park it? Don't feel like taking it for a tune up - hell, let it drive itself over there. Gotta pick up the kids? Getting the picture? By the way, RFID transmissions can be spoofed just like every other transmission type. Even if the gridguide just contained RFID chips everywhere (which would be wicked cool for us but kind of primitive for Shadowrun Seattle, I think) that still leaves cars just as vulnerable to a grid-guide crash. I like that you're taking into account the Matrix Crash as an event that shapes cultural awarness and consumer demand. I don't think enough people do that. But I feel that the Crash would create a paranoia toward AIs, but not networking security. As long as users are the ones programming the routes and telling the car where it goes, I don't think they'll have a problem with it. It's like setting the coffee grinder on a timer. Or the refridgerator talking to your scale and excersise machines to determine your diet.
There's something just really cool about that. It sounds like a (nearly) useless feature, but still cool. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 30 2007, 09:17 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
You're thinking Joe Average, Cetiah. For Joe Average, this is true - Joe Average will always opt for convienance over security. This is why credit card fraud happens, this is why people get mugged and get robbed.
We, however, are talking Shadowrunners. Shadowrunners are the ones who do the mugging and the robbing and the comlink fraud. They are so hooked-in, so connected to the nature of that very dilemna, that they know it better than they know their lovers. It's their oldest lover, their best mate, their most intimate connection. They caress it and soothe it to sleep at night. Therefor, any Joe Shadowrunner who opts for convienance over security is either (pick one): a: setting a trap b: a greenhorn c: an idiot |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 09:26 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 14-January 07 From: Zurich Orbital Member No.: 10,642 |
You forgot one: D) About to become wormfood
You mean there's another use for these things other than programming them to say "I'm with stupid -->"? Yes, one of my players has actually DONE that... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 09:36 PM
Post
#20
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
No, I'm not. I appear to be, I know. I'm all for giving runners security options (I just haven't mentioned any on this thread). But I think using them should be a CHOICE. Security vs convinience is not a choice. Some cool in game effect vs something that has no effect in the game is not a choice. If you're going to adopt this "We are Shadows" theme so thoroughly and completely, you might as well get rid of the "Wireless World" theme altogether and assume that shadowrunners, high security goons, mafia dudes, politicians, and corporate executives can't be hacked, ever. It would save a lot of time and discussion. See, in my view, runner's cars WOULD be vulnerable to hacking (because that seems like a cool component in an RPG hacking system) and yes, runners could get security options to enhance the security of their cars or other nodes. There would be no "total security option" and there's no conept of "I'm not wired and so I can't be hacked". That's rediculous. You might as well make armor so cool that "you can't get shot" while you're at it. But I'd rather just have expansive scales of resistance and damage that are constantly compared to eachother. Hacking should work similiarly. They got better hackers? You got better security. Hackers got even better. Well, security got even better. It should be a constant race, and hackers should have a slight edge because having a "completely thorough" security system/feature would undermine my concept of the world and the way shadowrunning works. See, I love the idea of a Black Hammer IC in your car ready to pound hackers. I hate the idea that you can just turn your wireless signals off and be completely immune. I imagine in Shadowrun that would be a completely absurd concept. Like turning the power off and then trying to make a cake. It COULD be done, theoretically... I've never tried it. Plus, I think most of the wireless features that exist, do so for a purpose. I can't imagine players trying to turn them off and then expecting their characters to be able to perform their actions and interact with the world the same way, and yet, that's what most players seem to want. The Wireless World needs wireless access and if you don't have any, there should be some in-game consequence for that. You can trade that consequence for security, but you still have to live with those consequences. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 30 2007, 09:40 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 14-January 07 From: Zurich Orbital Member No.: 10,642 |
It hints in the book that actually saying "I want the non-wired version of X" is a surefire way to raise eyebrows. I'd say having your car non-wired is definitely asking to at least be stopped and probably searched by Lone Star. If they randomly scan people in the streets to see if their PAN is on Active or not, they probably do the same to make sure cars are wired to "insure public safety"
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 09:49 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
You seem to prefer to think of Shadowrunner's as people that have to live in their own Shadow World, a world that works different and has different rules than everyone else. I think of Shadowrunners as someone who have to live in both. They live in a Shadow World *and* an Awakened World *and* a Wireless World, and they have to deal with all the problems and complications of both. When playing a character, you can't look at it as someone with today's perspective, but someone surrounded by an Awakened Wireless Shadow World. (Of course, since you brought up the specific case of Shadowrunners, I should note that I have custom hacking rules that makes this process easier for Shadowrunners. You get -2 penalty for not having things wired in (in an attempt to get rid of the all-purpose "I shut it all off" hacker defense), but its easier to get a firewall that provides general all-purpose defense against most low-skill hackers, and if you have a hacker, he has a Matrix action to "Overwatch" his allies. Most importantly, the built-in illegal "Stealth Chips" hardwired into comlinks rig them to send out deceptive signals that read like any other but can't be logged or recorded without a specific program made to do so.) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 09:51 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
This is what I meant in my previous post, by the way, in case I wasn't clear. A random PAN search will display a proper profile just like any other. But if the cop were to go back and look at the logs, he would find one missing. It's otherwise a perfectly legitimate profile displaying the shadowrunner's alternate identity. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2007, 10:08 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
I love all these comments that all runners must go wired in order to be 'valid' characters. Like the -2 penalty guy or the 'unwired isn't an option' comment later on.
Yet, there it is, right there in the book. The Wireless world isn't everywhere. It's not in the barrens, for example. Then there is the various negative qualities. A guy who's character is from the barrens and has 'untrained' in computers has no use for, and probably very little desire for, wired anything. He's got no ability to use it (untrained, not just 'I didn't put points in the skill'). More, what if VR/AR makes him nauseaus? that's a drawback in the book too? That guy's not going to want to run a PAN worth damn. I mean, sure he can with a LCD screen or whatever the future equivilent of hardware is, but after a while the 'convience' of the entire set up is going to be so sub-par why bother keeping up? Then you get the grognards, the guys that LIKE the old school ways of doing things. You know, the guys that drive Model T fords today? the same guys demanding a revolver because 'it's more reliable', never mind that semi-auto pistols have got it on... hey! Look at that! A revolver right there in the rulebook!!! Guess those guys are still around. Not everyone wants to adapt the newest technology, and the wireless world is still fairly new in the setting... five years or so? Ah, you say 'Some of this convience translates to better average performance, so not taking advantage of it is the equivilent of having lower skill'... You mean like Anti-lock breaks? You do know they were programmed by using what really good drivers already did? So at the top end, automation actually reduces the capability of the user, because its only a formulaic implementation of what they already know how to do. And Shadowrunners are quite often the experts. So. Wireless conviences? Check. As long as we're talking about 'between jobs' and just 'hanging out'. When the Run is on, then wireless, sort of like how any other rarified professionals tend to use old, proven stuff over newfangled devices.* *Military snipers still use a 90 year old bolt action design rifle, over newer model guns. The name of the game is reliablity, not convience. Professional race car drivers don't use any of the cars mentioned up thread for races, and often have none of the 'convenince devices' installed at all. Why are shadowrunners expected to be different about their work? :sleepy: |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2007, 10:35 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
edit: removed.
No point. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th August 2025 - 07:02 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.