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> F/X Threshold, another alternate mechanic
Garrowolf
post Feb 1 2007, 05:03 AM
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I thought about putting this with the other alternate mechanics thread I had but I didn't want this getting lost in the shuffle.

Okay, here's my idea. I have always wanted a hit location system that wouldn't bog the game down. Most systems that have hit location penalize you for making the attempt. Or they randomize it totally and add a seperate hit location roll.

The idea I came up with for a different game I ran using similar mechanics to shadowrun was the idea of a special effects threshold. Basically it acts as an optional threshold AFTER all the other rolls are made.

So the steps of a roll become this:
1) Roll attack roll
2) Make sure it gets past the difficulty threshold (if there is one)
3) If so then compare to opposition roll
4) If there are any successes past the opposition roll then check to see if what is left beats the F/X threshold.

Basically it just adds a step to the end.

Here is where it gets interesting. If you don't beat the threshold then you hit as normal. It acts like you didn't have the threshold in the first place. This is a major difference in systems that make you take a penalty to hit for hit location but if you fail to get it you fail entirely.

If you succeed then you get the benefit of the special effect. This can be to ignore armor, hit to stun, hit to do vitals damage, knock things out of someone's hand, do some sort of trick, stake them in the chest, etc. Treat armor based on it's coverage not on it's armor rating. A jacket might require a threshold of 2 to circumvent. A Shot to the head, which would circumvent anything but a helmet would be a 4. So would hitting hands or the neck. If it is covered then you can't circumvent it. You could do something like lower the body dice for hitting someone in the head. Maybe also make them take the same damage as stun.

You could treat grapple checks like this. Basically if you get the special effect then you have locked them up. If not they have to continue to struggle.

Martial arts become more interesting because you can declare the attempt to make your damage lethal as a special effect. You are trying to crush the throat or snap a neck or something. If you fail then you still injure them. You just don't convert it to lethal.

The advantage of doing it this way is that if you have a player who is not comfortable with this system then they can just ignore it and not use it. It doesn't punish the players for being creative. They can do it on every action or just for special occasions. It can add a lot of variety to game play.

Now the limit on this is that a person can't take on a combined threshold of higher then their skill level. You can adjust this for you games (maybe half the skill level). This keeps the mooks from making head shots all the time but that sniper with years of experience is dangerous as hell.

Now this doesn't mean that you have to keep up with a lot of information about hit location. It occured to me that all hit location means is that you have taken damage but it also has a "special effect" of some additional limitation. So you can say shoot for the elbow to take out someone's arm. If you don't get the threshold then you just shot them normally. If you did get the threshold then they take the normal damage but they can't use that arm.

Now you don't need to take an aim action to use these. This reflects high skill. You can take time to aim and lower the threshold if your target doesn't move much but the threshold shouldn't go below a 1. It would also go down in melee range and for sneak attack type stuff. Basically try and think how much harder it would be to make then the basic shot and add that. I think 4 should be the highest F/X threshold.

On a critical success then I usually give them a choice of taking a karma or getting a free special effect.

You could also use this wth vehicle combat. Make the special effects various dangerous manuevers.

When a person makes their roll they declare what their action is and declare what special effect they would like.

For Example: I shoot at the ganger with the chain, I'm going to try and shoot him in the head. I rolled well enough to hit but not good enough to hit in the head. Apply armor as normal. I shoot the second time and make the F/X threshold so they don't get to apply armor and subtract 2 from their body roll. Ouch!

What do you guys think?
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cetiah
post Feb 1 2007, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE
Now this doesn't mean that you have to keep up with a lot of information about hit location. It occured to me that all hit location means is that you have taken damage but it also has a "special effect" of some additional limitation. So you can say shoot for the elbow to take out someone's arm. If you don't get the threshold then you just shot them normally. If you did get the threshold then they take the normal damage but they can't use that arm.


The Paladium system uses something like this in their Robotech game, and possibly others. Your mecha can make called shots against body parts, but if you don't meet the requirement - but score high enough to hit - then it gets targeted to "main body".

This didn't work for our games. Three reasons:

1) For one thing, the mechanics felt kind of ludicrous during play. It literally became a farce when someone declared a called shot.

2) Called shots limit your ability to concentrate your fire, making it an undesired tactic for those trying to take down enemies.

3) Players who had no interest in called shots would still declare the hardest called shot to achieve, because there was a longshot chance of blowing away the head or the pilot or something but generally not enough of a chance to influence damage concentration away from the main body.

I realize the situation isn't exactly the same, but I think these warnings are similar enough to be helpful to you.
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Garrowolf
post Feb 1 2007, 06:36 AM
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well unless you add a penalty at the beginning I can't think of a way to stop that and still keep most of this intact. Maybe make the limit on your threshold a higher skill level. Maybe make it based on F/X level -2 so you can make a level 1 shot at a 3.

One thing I thought of was limiting what f/x level you could do based on range. At short range you could target anything. at medium range you could do 1 less, etc.

The problem is that I want to be able to reflect specific things in the game. One is Sam Elliot's character in "We were soldiers once", the one with Mel Gibson about the Helicoptor (which is partially a lie because I know someone who was at that battle). Sam was shooting for the head every time. He was aimming each time and firing quickly. Now I wanted to be able to have that kind of character in there.

I also wanted to be able to have a gunslinger character like Doc Holiday that can quick draw as a free action, shoot someone in the head, then holster again as their action.

Most gangers in my game only have a 2 in firearms so they couldn't do much F/X wise.

I think that limiting it to higher skill levels might help with some of that. It would keep down some of the longst shot called shot stuff.

The other thing I was going to do was use this with the range threshold rule from the other post. Basically you couldn't take a shot with a combined threshold beyond your skill level. If you already have a long range shot then that is a threshold of 2 but you add a f/x threshold of 4 then you would have to have a 8 skill to do that. (6 for the thresholds and the +2 base level requirement)

What do you think?


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cetiah
post Feb 1 2007, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE
The problem is that I want to be able to reflect specific things in the game. One is Sam Elliot's character in "We were soldiers once", the one with Mel Gibson about the Helicoptor (which is partially a lie because I know someone who was at that battle). Sam was shooting for the head every time. He was aimming each time and firing quickly. Now I wanted to be able to have that kind of character in there.

I also wanted to be able to have a gunslinger character like Doc Holiday that can quick draw as a free action, shoot someone in the head, then holster again as their action.


It seems the things you're trying to reflect would really piss me off in one of my games. I would hate to see players "abusing" the called shot rules to the point where they're making head shots every freakin' time they shoot someone.

For that sort of thing, it's probably better just to have a high damage as per normal rules (skills help deal more damage) and say "you took him down with a headshot" than no-penalty awesome-benefit headshots each time someone fires their gun. Not only does it seem like extreme abuse, but it takes away the whole flavor of the called shot, doesn't it?


QUOTE
I think that limiting it to higher skill levels might help with some of that. It would keep down some of the longst shot called shot stuff.

Not from players. They're not likely to have a rating of 2 in their primary combat skills, like those gangers you mentioned.

QUOTE
The other thing I was going to do was use this with the range threshold rule from the other post. Basically you couldn't take a shot with a combined threshold beyond your skill level. If you already have a long range shot then that is a threshold of 2 but you add a f/x threshold of 4 then you would have to have a 8 skill to do that. (6 for the thresholds and the +2 base level requirement)

This is pretty cool, actually. What about stuff that adds and takes away dice. Does a smartlik help you do stunts?
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DireRadiant
post Feb 1 2007, 02:30 PM
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I can always break out the rolemaster charts and percentile dice if I have trouble describing and implementing the fluff effects of called shots.
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Eryk the Red
post Feb 1 2007, 02:53 PM
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I think the most important thing with any system of called shots is to balance the various possibilities. If the head shot is the most powerful, everyone will be trying head shots. This is the reason I think that anything that amounts to a direct bonus to damage (like the entire called shots system in the BBB) is a bad idea. Called shots should be all about secondary effects. That'll also keep combat more interesting.

(As a side note, I'm designing an RPG combat system where the idea of secondary attack effects is at the core. Every attack does or tries to do something extra, like pushing a guy back, knocking him down or restraining him. I think stuff like this makes combat fun, rather than just an exercise in subtracting hit points.)

This isn't really especially a criticism or praise of the system you propose, Garrowolf, which I think is sound, but not my style. It's more just advice for when you devise examples of various called shots, their effects and their required thresholds.
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cetiah
post Feb 1 2007, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE
(As a side note, I'm designing an RPG combat system where the idea of secondary attack effects is at the core. Every attack does or tries to do something extra, like pushing a guy back, knocking him down or restraining him. I think stuff like this makes combat fun, rather than just an exercise in subtracting hit points.)


Eryk, this sounds exactly like what Garrawolf was describing. How's it different? (I realize the "heat shot" example is different than your "push a guy back" examples, but that's the only difference I see, conceptually.)


As to your comments quoted above: Yes and no. I've experimented with many such systems in the past. Here's a warning: Regardless of how many options a player has to choose from, they tend to decide on one or a select few and consistently use those every time. For example, if the player, for whatever reason, has decided that head shots are more efficient, they will always use those (instead of knocking someone back or something). Alternatively, they may simple choose one based on preference.

In order for there to be a variety of "combat f/x" resulted from such things as called shots, one (or more) of three things has to happen:
1) the GM has to purposefully, willfully, prepare a situation in which that called shot is more useful (such as when the guy is right by the edge of the building and a good push will knock him off...)
2) the combat dynamics have to variable from situation to situation (a favorite tactic of d20 designers, where under some conditions a particular tactic just won't work, whereas in others a given tactic will work when it otherwise wouldn't)
3) the availability of called shots has to be variable (so that called shots can only be done so many times, or so many times each way)

I like number three best, but I don't know how to implement it.

There's a fourth way, too:
4) each called shot needs a different follow-up effects that change the nature of the situation, allowing some f/x to be usable and others not based on the f/x that have been used already. (Some Martial Arts systems tend to do this, such as shifting to a Hard Stance or conducting a Hard Attack Form that limits your ability to use Soft Attacks or increases an opponent's resistance to similiar attacks)

Personally, I don't think #4 is really an option, becuase that just ensures players will develop their favorite "sequence of called shots" instead of their favorite "called shots". I think it can be kind of cool when combined with one or more of the the above 3 options, though. I've never seen it done.

Personally, while I can see why you would want better called shot rules, for the "head shots" and stuff that you're describing is better handled by something like the current called shot SR4 rules (except I don't think the numbers are balanced - but I like the methodology). The kind of "trick shot" you and Garrawolf are describing seem to me ideal situations to handle cover and the like. I could see using rules like Garrowolf is describing to great effect to handle hostage situations and the like. (Threshold 1 or less, you miss. Threshold 2-4, you hit the hostage. Threshold 5 or more, you hit the target. This situation could still be combined with standard SR4 called shot rules, if you're character is just THAT good, or has edge to spare.)

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Eryk the Red
post Feb 1 2007, 06:36 PM
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I guess the difference is what sort of secondary effects I prefer to allow. If you have the "bonus damage" effect (likely the "head shot") people are likely to fall back on that because damage is what combat is all about.

My desire is for a system where damage is present, and a part of all attacks. But, you have a number of options which determine what else happens. I'm not so worried about people using the same attack too much. I just like the idea of a system that illustrates attack effects in addition to damage, which serves to make a combat more interesting and dynamic.
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Garrowolf
post Feb 2 2007, 05:37 AM
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well for one I don't really have a problem with the PCs focusing on called shots to the head. Special Forces are trained to go for the virmillion line across the eyes to shut someone down immediately. I also think that if the player is trying to kill someone quickly then why not do that? There are some times when the option will not be available. I want guns to be as deadly as possible because I run a gritty game that is also cinematic. People can do cool stunts and tricks but it want them to keep their heads down. I want the stunts to be fueled by trying to find creative ways to hit someone without exposing themselves to too much fire.

The other reason I like hit location, especially in a cyberpunk-esque setting is that I like the idea of someone getting their arm or leg blow off and trying to crawl across the street to cover. They know that this kind of wound isn't necessarily the end of their lives because of the high level of medical technology. They could take it in a cyberlimb and take no damage to themselves but they now need to make enough on the run to pay for the repair or replacement of that limb. They can even choose to sacrifice that limb to save their life.

I also wanted a system where the players will be rewarded for trying to interact more with their environment.
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Garrowolf
post Feb 2 2007, 07:11 AM
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Also I forgot to mention that there are defensive F/x as well. If you roll high enough over the attacker then you get a counter effect but only if you were prepared to do so.

The other thing is that you can't use F/X if you were surprised or couldn't focus on the target enough to plan ahead. I can also veto any F/X if I don't think it would be logistically possible. Besides it can be fairly obvious what a person is trying to do with special effects so the opposition can do things to try and negate it.

Of course this just leads to more creativity so yay!
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Eryk the Red
post Feb 2 2007, 07:42 PM
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It's a matter of preference, of course, but I always agreed with the old White Wolf philosophy about calling shots for extra damage: "That's what attacking is." You're always trying for extra damage, that's why hits add to damage. I'd be cool with the idea of a called shot to a limb having the effect that if a certain amount of damage is dealt, the limb is disabled (or something similar). It's also about priorities, though. There are gritty elements to my game, but combat is very cinematic. Dangerous, but cinematic. (There is a remarkable tendency, especially for a particular character, that if someone takes damage, it is a lot of damage, sometimes enough to drop them.) I don't want them calling head shots, because that's all they'll do. Take cover. Head shot. Repeat. I want to promote other tactics.

Now, if I ramped up the grit, they would need other tactics, for defensive reasons. So, for me, it's about striking that balance.
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Garrowolf
post Feb 3 2007, 05:44 AM
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Well how about the idea that you can't get extra damage from F/X? Basically make the F/X just about the special effects. The head shot may be the in game reason but not necessarily an increase in damage.
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cetiah
post Feb 3 2007, 09:52 AM
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QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Well how about the idea that you can't get extra damage from F/X? Basically make the F/X just about the special effects. The head shot may be the in game reason but not necessarily an increase in damage.

Just so we're all on the same page, anything that affects how much body, armor, and resistance dice a character gets for an attack is the same thing as affecting damage, right?
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Garrowolf
post Feb 3 2007, 10:02 AM
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well not exactly. This is designed to replace the piss poor armor bypass rules from RAW for one. I can't see why a belt buckle with 15 B/I would require a 15 dice pool penalty. I think that there should be a modifier to ignore armor based on coverage not armor rating.

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