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> Are people still goblinizing?
Pyritefoolsgold
post Feb 6 2007, 12:10 AM
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i just thought this was an important question, since it seems like the genetic expression ran it's course, and I have a great fiction idea that hinges on a character having genetically expressed at 12, while having normal parents.

Mostly, I want to know if it was at least still going on in the 2050s.
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cristomeyers
post Feb 6 2007, 12:12 AM
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Yes, it is possible for trolls or orks to have human children that goblinize later. It has become much, much rarer though.
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Pyritefoolsgold
post Feb 6 2007, 12:16 AM
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No, I'm looking for human parents having a child who goblinizes as an orc or troll. Even if it's very rare, I just need to know if it was still possible in 2050.
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FrankTrollman
post Feb 6 2007, 12:31 AM
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Yes. As of 2050 there are still children who are not the same race as their parents, and still children who express as an ork or a troll at puberty.

And of course, it's still anyone's guess what happens from the union of two individuals of different race. An Elf who impregnates an Ork will most likely produce a Human, an Ork, or an Elf... but Dwarf or Troll is still entirely possible.

-Frank
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PBTHHHHT
post Feb 6 2007, 12:36 AM
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I'm just there aren't any Hob- Half- *koff* I mean windlings running about.
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Pyritefoolsgold
post Feb 6 2007, 01:24 AM
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So, another question though the burning one is now solved: is goblinization still going on? I always thought it was a magnificent part of the pathos of shadowrun.

And by still I mean in the 2070s
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Jaid
post Feb 6 2007, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
I'm just there aren't any Hob- Half- *koff* I mean windlings running about.

you mean sprites?
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FrankTrollman
post Feb 6 2007, 03:33 AM
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Goblinization is still going on. In 2070, 19 out of 20 humans born to Ork parents goblinize at puberty (SR4, p. 66).

-Frank
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Ancient History
post Feb 6 2007, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
And of course, it's still anyone's guess what happens from the union of two individuals of different race. An Elf who impregnates an Ork will most likely produce a Human, an Ork, or an Elf... but Dwarf or Troll is still entirely possible.

-Frank

Theoretically. In practice, there are certain constraints. The child of two metahumans is always one of the parents' races (except for orks and trolls, in which case the child might be human and Goblinize later, or any metahumans that could theoretically carry out the full term in a no-mana environment, in which case the kid would be human-but if they carry the ork or troll metatrait, would still goblinize if introduced into a positive mana environment), and even then elves don't give birth to orks or trolls, orks don't give birth to dwarves, etc.
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Pyritefoolsgold
post Feb 6 2007, 04:22 AM
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Still, while that's a rather nice little bit (being born perfectly normal, but knowing you'll be a troll when you grow up) I'm still more interested in orc or troll children coming from human parents.
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FrankTrollman
post Feb 6 2007, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 6 2007, 12:31 AM)
And of course, it's still anyone's guess what happens from the union of two individuals of different race. An Elf who impregnates an Ork will most likely produce a Human, an Ork, or an Elf... but Dwarf or Troll is still entirely possible.

-Frank

Theoretically. In practice, there are certain constraints. The child of two metahumans is always one of the parents' races (except for orks and trolls, in which case the child might be human and Goblinize later, or any metahumans that could theoretically carry out the full term in a no-mana environment, in which case the kid would be human-but if they carry the ork or troll metatrait, would still goblinize if introduced into a positive mana environment), and even then elves don't give birth to orks or trolls, orks don't give birth to dwarves, etc.

Going by the old 2050 material, even that is an oversimplification.

The Dwarf/Elf group is distinctly different from the Ork/Troll group. Not just in its propensity to goblinize at puberty, but also in the dominance of its expression.

A child born to an Elf and a Dwarf is approximately equally likely to be an Elf or a Dwarf (chances of another expression such as Human or Ork are either very low or zero depending upon which lines you feel like interpretting literally). A child born to an Ork and a Troll parent is roughly equally likely to be an Ork or a Troll (and is less than 5% likely to be a human).

But a child born to an Elf and an Ork parent is almost always born human, and in turn is 95% likely to goblinize at puberty. Same results are found for an Elf/Troll pair or a Dwarf/Ork pair, or a Dwarf/Troll pair (painful as that last one is to even contemplate it does happen).

---

Or at least, that's what I got ou of the SR2 main book's description of Metahumanity contrasted with the SR4 main book's description. Of course, there's little problems like the fact that the SR4 main book gets the number of teeth that trolls have wrong - so these numbers are highly suspect.

For example, the Elf/Dwarf pair is described as "always" producing an elf or a dwarf - but that's part of the sentence that talks about how there are no half-elves, so it's hard to tell if that means that specifically an Elf/Dwarf pair is an exception to the statement that a mixed race pairing "almost never" produces an offspring that isn't one race or the other.

Similarly, when the book states that the offspring of one parent from the Elf/Dwarf group and one parent from the Ork/Troll group almost always produces "a goblinized expression" (SR2, p. 34), I am not sure whether that literally means that the result is human which then usually goblinizes at puberty or whether it's just inexact terminology and they really just meant that the Ork/Troll genes won.

:shrug:

-Frank
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Draug
post Feb 6 2007, 05:34 AM
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Not quite on-topic, but related: Is there such a thing as ork/elf/dwarf/troll genes? I was of the impression that they all had the same genes as humans.
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TonkaTuff
post Feb 6 2007, 06:43 AM
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I can't recall exactly, but I think the way it goes is that all of metahumanity has basically the exact same overall genes. Blood and organs can largely be transferred freely among the different branches, as long as the types match, and they can reproduce among themselves, with the limitations mentioned earlier. But the genome of nearly every biological species contains a number of genes that (at present) have no discernable purpose. In the SR universe, these "useless" genes activate in the presence of a sufficient level of ambient mana - resulting in magical ability or effects, and expression as a paraspecies. Though which actual combination of these genes do what is still largely unknown, even to the 6th World's advanced genetic science. Which is why they can't (as of yet) select for magical traits or "cure" goblinization. While a combination of genes 'R' and 'K' may turn one person into an ork, in another person they might create a magician, or cause some horrible birth defect.
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Sir_Psycho
post Feb 6 2007, 07:13 AM
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You have to keep in mind that the different races are all different lines of the same species. Ork's and Elves are both homo-sapiens, and that is why they can inter-breed.
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Garrowolf
post Feb 6 2007, 07:27 AM
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An interesting question: If it is based on the mana level then could you hit someone who has not developed yet but has the genes to do so with enough magic to cause them to change? Maybe someone gets hit several times with a stun bolt over a period of time. ;)
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 6 2007, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE (Garrowolf)
An interesting question: If it is based on the mana level then could you hit someone who has not developed yet but has the genes to do so with enough magic to cause them to change? Maybe someone gets hit several times with a stun bolt over a period of time. ;)

Nothing official, but my intuition is yes and no. Sure, you could get them to change if you could expose them to a higher mana level, such as by taking them to a power site or maybe maybe exposing them to powerful ritual sorcery, but just bludgeoning them repeatedly with spells? I'd say 'no' to that part. They need to be exposed to a higher mana level, not beaten with the current mana level.
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Cynic project
post Feb 6 2007, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 6 2007, 12:31 AM)
And of course, it's still anyone's guess what happens from the union of two individuals of different race. An Elf who impregnates an Ork will most likely produce a Human, an Ork, or an Elf... but Dwarf or Troll is still entirely possible.

-Frank

Theoretically. In practice, there are certain constraints. The child of two metahumans is always one of the parents' races (except for orks and trolls, in which case the child might be human and Goblinize later, or any metahumans that could theoretically carry out the full term in a no-mana environment, in which case the kid would be human-but if they carry the ork or troll metatrait, would still goblinize if introduced into a positive mana environment), and even then elves don't give birth to orks or trolls, orks don't give birth to dwarves, etc.

So, what you are telling me is that humans are the only race that give birth too all other races?And as such either the highest on the totem pole or the lowest...
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Ravor
post Feb 6 2007, 04:32 PM
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Well since we are the only ones capable of surviving during the downcycle I'd say we are at the top.

Still, this brings up an interesting question, what happens during the downcycle? Will there be 'reverse goblinizition' or will the existing metas simply start giving birth to humans and die out naturally?

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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 6 2007, 04:35 PM
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I don't think there's any reverse goblinization; I think the metas just start having human babies, but I could be wrong.
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cristomeyers
post Feb 6 2007, 04:44 PM
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I think they retain some sort of the genetic structure, only buried deep (hence the HGP missing it or mislabeling it as junk), so that when the mana level rises again, it triggers the Ork/Troll gene and people start goblinizing.

Of course, this is all pure speculation.
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lorechaser
post Feb 6 2007, 05:08 PM
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How many teeth does a troll have, then?
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 6 2007, 05:12 PM
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Where did that come from?
Anyway, I don't know the answer, but it's in the entry for Trolls in the SR2 core book.
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FrankTrollman
post Feb 6 2007, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
How many teeth does a troll have, then?

Trolls have 34 teeth.

In the SR4 rulebook it is misprinted and says
QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 67)
A troll's ears are pointed, and they have two extra teeth - for a total of 32 - including prominent lower canines.


32 is of course the standard number of teeth for a normal human, so you can figure out from context that they are supposed to have 34. In previous editions, the number of teeth was correctly given as 34.

QUOTE
Still, this brings up an interesting question, what happens during the downcycle? Will there be 'reverse goblinizition' or will the existing metas simply start giving birth to humans and die out naturally?


That is also known. Each metahuman lives out the rest of its natural lifespan without changing and dies with its normal metatype intact, even with no ambient mana at all. If the metahuman has any children, they will all be humans. And if the metahuman dies, its corpse will slowly revert to a human corpse as it decays.

We can infer this from the direct evidence of the life history of the immortal elves, and the remains of various Earthdawn settlements. Also the results of metahumans living on space stations.

Someone carrying the genes that would allow for an Ork or Troll expression will be born a human if gestated in a null-mana zone, but may goblinize later if subsequently exposed to magic. A carrier of Dwarf or Elf genes who is born in a null magic zone will be born a human and will never express as a dwarf or elf even if he spends the rest of his life licking a mana storm.

-Frank
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hobgoblin
post Feb 6 2007, 07:24 PM
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didn't a SR magic book bring up the theory of genes being 4d constructs?

was it in sota:63?
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FrankTrollman
post Feb 6 2007, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
didn't a SR magic book bring up the theory of genes being 4d constructs?

was it in sota:63?

That would be Shadowtech.

-Frank
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