Bringing 2020 to 2065 - Dumpshock Forums

Bringing 2020 to 2065, CP2020 conversion questions

Turtle View Member Profile	Feb 20 2007, 10:01 PM Post #51
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 27-July 03 From: Mainz, Germany Member No.: 5,072	Looks good overall...only browsed parts of your conversions, but they mostly add a lot of specific flavour to SR. And that's never wasted effort. :) And as for somebody telling you to generalize stuff...don't. It's always been nicer to read about "Zeiss Cybereyes" instead of "Generic Cybereye #1-X" with the advice to the DM to personalize it. SR always about the little details of the 6th world as much as the big stuff.

Pendaric View Member Profile	Feb 20 2007, 10:05 PM Post #52
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047	Theres some pretty nice .1 essense things. Display link, yes I can see that. Retinal clock, no problem. Level three electronic vison magnification? Er no Damn I sound anal. Am just trying to keep it cyberpunk and not sci fi if that makes sense but it does help.

Darkwalker

Feb 20 2007, 10:37 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE (cetiah)

QUOTE (Darkwalker @ Feb 10 2007, 02:44 PM)

A few things:

A RAM grenade is NOT identical to a Ramjet. Actually they have absolutely NOTHING in common. A RAM has at best a short booster stage attached to a classical 40mm Grenade or a Rifle Grenade. It is NOT self powered until impact. A RAMJET is an air-breathing jet engine that works without the compressor system. RAMJET bullets are self powered until impact. They can use propellants without internal oxygen. This is a short overview

TNE's Fire Fuzion and Steel is nice but it does not produce the same values as CP and it is known to produce unrealistic results (Try building a modern day tank, it ends at 230+ tons). The system is build to work with Traveller, not to produce real-life compatibel weapons. Take a look at 5.56N vs. 7.62N under the system for damage/range and compare to real life

I hope you use all erata for FFS. The weapon design sequences where known buggy in the original and even in second print

Gyrojet rounds for a RL pistol are about the same damage value as real pistols once they get to speed. They where unguided rounds that played the "no recoil" card, caliber was 13mm and short range bullet energy was extremly low (could be stopped by cardboard at the muzzel). At longer ranges the bullet energy was up to 50 percent higher than a .45ACP in army load. GURPS Gyrocs are bigger to use heavier warloads (some are explosive) and to get a guidance system in at the higher TL rounds (I.e Viper)

Okay, you don't like Fire, Fusion, and Steel. I get that. But in the absense of anything else, it's not a bad source to generate a starting point.

First of all, the RAM grenade does not wait until impact to fire off its rockets. That's just silly. It's a Rocket-Assisted Multipurpose grenade. It's well named. I've looked on several sites and I can't find anything that suggests the RAM grenade is not just a rocket-propelled grenade, in much the same way your ramjet is a rocket-propelled bullet. There's no reason you couldn't use the same rules to govern rocket-propelled ammunition of any type simply by replacing the large explosive "warhead" with a small kinetic "warhead".

Second, you seem to be missing the idea of generating a 'custom weapon'. Just because I used the RAM rules doesn't mean I'm generating a RAM like those that might be found in the military today. I've replaced the grenade "warhead" with a small KEAP bullet. The entire bullet is much smaller than a grenade, and the whole gun itself is something between a large pistol and a small rifle. The bullet is larger than a standard bullet but much smaller than a grenade. Stop thinking of it like a freakin' shoulder-mounted one-shot RPG firing an explosive missile. I've changed the dyanmics of the bullet, making it smaller, solid, changing its airframe, and using its increased surface area as a ramjet, fueling the rocket instead of burning conventional fuel.

Thrid, there is nothing in that website that contradicts what I said. The standard rocket is better than a ramjet. A ramjet is terribly inefficient until it reaches supersonic speeds, and even then its only advantage comes from fuel efficiency -- it's not any more effective or damaging than a comparable KEAP round flying at comparable speeds through rocket-propulsion. Except the rocket-assisted multipurpose KEAP round may run out of fuel a lot sooner.

To use this in an aircraft you need to first propel the aircraft to supersonic speeds, and then rely on the ramjet. Same deal with bullets except that given the range you are firing at, there's really no need for the ramjet mechanism.

Fourth, as for your dislike of Traveller's ability to simulate reality, I think that the game statistics for traveller weaponry resembles the game statistics for Shadowrun pretty closely.

Totally wrong Cethia, as an old time Grognard FFS is the second best Traveller design system IMHO, bested only by GURPS and sses a lot of use here. That does NOT change the fact that is has KNOWN problems well discussed among Traveller fans and newsgroups NOR the FACT that it has TWO large sets of errata, one published in CHALLENG, one on the TML and you need both for the bugfixes. And quite a few are in the weapon design sequence. Add in some additional rules in Traveller Supplements (Multi-Model weapons, multi feed weapons) and in CHALLENGE (Muzzleloaders) and the question "Do you have the errata" is actually a good one. And the 230to tank is a fact (It's in the TNE equipment manual)

I never said the RAM grenade fires it's rocket on impact. It is a BOOSTER stage and Boosters fire at the start. Never claimed anything different. There is actually a different design sequence for unguided rockets (RPG). And at 30mm your grenade is about the size of the basic RAM grenades from Traveller. And I am NOT thinking of a shoulder launched weapon. I know the difference between a Grenade Launcher (i.e HK69) and an RPG (i.e Panzerfaust 44 Lanze) quite well both in reality as well as in ALL variants of Traveller. Traveller RAM grenades are either underbarrel launchers or rifle grenades

You still do not grasp the difference between an air breathing jet engine (Ramjet) and a rocket. A Ramjet does not need an airframe as a look at the examples would have shown (they are missile bodies)

The "Except the rocket may run out of fuel sooner" IS the concept behind a RAMJET. Once it reaches working speed, something that was mentioned quite a few times, it is vastly more fuel efficient than a rocket, having longer acceleration times and thereby reaching higher speeds with the same fuel load. And in man portabel weapons the fuel load IS the important thing since you'll likely never reach your maximum velocity. Also remember that grenades are SLOW (80m/s). You can actually SEE the 40mm grenades going downrange from a HK69. And they fly a ballistic arc for any distance over 100m. Similar for the TNE 40mm RAM grenade (RefCol Equipment Manual, Pg 101: 40m short range, 550m Indirect Fire range. And that is an FFS design at TL9, compare to IFR 400mm for the IRL 40mm Low Vel HK69 40mm at TL7 in Traveller parlance)

Actually getting an aircraft to a speed where a low-powered Ramjet variant can function is quite easy. Look up the Argus pulse engine for the Fi 103, better known as the V1. Same for the bullet, a "kicker" charge

And finally once again: Facts have nothing to do with like or dislike of a system. It is simply not possible to re-build any TL 7 weapon with FFS without the errata. I.e the 5.5mm Assault rifle comes in at 5.83kg and that is TL9. The TL7-8 G36 is a very similar weapon and is a 2.2kg lighter (both unloaded) while similar sized. And we are not talking about ranges in GDW's T2K V2.2 (That is the base for TNE and thereby FFS). A G3 with a 260m maximum range, ja sure. What the heck was that 400m setting for on the drum? 200m for a LA-85 or G36 - strange last time I could hit targets at 300m quite well. The GDW staff did put "combat modifiers" into the weapon ranges instead of into the task system. Therefor the ranges don't even match Shadowrun where Rifles reach to 400m IIRC.

That does not make T2K or TNE bad systems, both are far better than Shadowrun <any Edition>(okay, that's easy) or even Cyberpunk. But they have their kinks and problems and those have been extensively discussed in CHALLENGE (GDW's house magazin, GDW is the original author of FFS) and on the mailing lists/newsgroups.

cetiah

Feb 20 2007, 11:37 PM

Post #54

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(sigh) Not interested in discussing Traveller anymore. You don't like it. Fine. You don't like the gun I designed, the way I designed it, or the fact that I used its stats to interpret data rather than reconstruct real-world designs. You don't like that I used it as a baseline for my conversion instead of using something else as my baseline and then comparing FF&S to it. Fine. Let's not discuss it anymore.

On to ramjets:

QUOTE

The "Except the rocket may run out of fuel sooner" IS the concept behind a RAMJET. Once it reaches working speed, something that was mentioned quite a few times, it is vastly more fuel efficient than a rocket, having longer acceleration times and thereby reaching higher speeds with the same fuel load.

My assumptions:
1) At any practical range for a personal weapon, neither jet-rocket nor petro-rocket are going to run out of fuel before impact.
2) If you disregard rule #1, then the ramjet does not get any comparable advantage until long after the maximum range of the petro-rocket has been exceeded.
3) The additional mass of a petro-rocket contributes to its explosive and concussive damage, especially at short ranges. The ramjet recieves no such benefits.
4) Up until a certain range, the ramjet is similiar to a conventional bullet. Similar but not the same. The additional ramjet requirements (most notably empty space to collect and process air) will reduce its mass and thus its damage.

Disagree on any particular concept there?

nezumi

Feb 21 2007, 02:37 AM

Post #55

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QUOTE (Pendaric)

Theres some pretty nice .1 essense things.
Display link, yes I can see that.
Retinal clock, no problem.
Level three electronic vison magnification? Er no

Yeah, magnification erked me too. I can't understand why low-light is .2 and 3x mag is .1. But I can sorta kinda see that sort of technology. Fair enough, I'll nix 'em. Let SR4 bring them into play. I'm a little surprised you don't like the contacts, but you're comfortable with the shades though.

Herald of Verjig...

Feb 21 2007, 04:01 AM

Post #56

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QUOTE (nezumi)

I'm a little surprised you don't like the contacts, but you're comfortable with the shades though.

Shades are external and can be lost without needing something to poke the eye to get it loose. Ever bump into something and have contacts come out?

It's also already been partially implemented with the rules for low light, thermal goggles in the regular gear section. Shades variants have even been listed in the NSRCG for a long time (though with no page reference). I don't remember if there is anything about making the goggles more aesthetically pleasing in the SR3 book.

Darkwalker

Feb 21 2007, 04:19 AM

Post #57

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QUOTE (cetiah @ Feb 20 2007, 06:37 PM)

(sigh) Not interested in discussing Traveller anymore. You don't like it. Fine. You don't like the gun I designed, the way I designed it, or the fact that I used its stats to interpret data rather than reconstruct real-world designs. You don't like that I used it as a baseline for my conversion instead of using something else as my baseline and then comparing FF&S to it. Fine. Let's not discuss it anymore.

On to ramjets:

QUOTE

The "Except the rocket may run out of fuel sooner" IS the concept behind a RAMJET. Once it reaches working speed, something that was mentioned quite a few times, it is vastly more fuel efficient than a rocket, having longer acceleration times and thereby reaching higher speeds with the same fuel load.

My assumptions:
1) At any practical range for a personal weapon, neither jet-rocket nor petro-rocket are going to run out of fuel before impact.
2) If you disregard rule #1, then the ramjet does not get any comparable advantage until long after the maximum range of the petro-rocket has been exceeded.
3) The additional mass of a petro-rocket contributes to its explosive and concussive damage, especially at short ranges. The ramjet recieves no such benefits.
4) Up until a certain range, the ramjet is similiar to a conventional bullet. Similar but not the same. The additional ramjet requirements (most notably empty space to collect and process air) will reduce its mass and thus its damage.

Disagree on any particular concept there?

Hello, do you hear me? One, two. Hello?

What part of the phrases:

QUOTE

Totally wrong Cethia, as an old time Grognard FFS is the second best Traveller design system IMHO, bested only by GURPS and sses a lot of use here.

I know the difference between a Grenade Launcher (i.e HK69) and an RPG (i.e Panzerfaust 44 Lanze) quite well both in reality as well as in ALL variants of Traveller

That does not make T2K or TNE bad systems, both are far better than Shadowrun <any Edition>(okay, that's easy) or even Cyberpunk

RefCol Equipment Manual, Pg 101: 40m short range, 550m Indirect Fire range. And that is an FFS design at TL9

did give you the idea I do NOT like Traveller? The fact that I know all Versions? Or the fact that I consider it superior to quite a few systems? Or my rather broad interest in all it's details and problems? My obviously large investments in the system? Capability to look up such facts and knowledge of system mechanics?

Bub I likely played the system when you where still pissing your diapers in the early 80s and I will likely still play it when I am again pissing mine. That does not mean I am blind to the problems of the various incarnations be it the way characters are generated be it the various constructio systems from Book 2 to Striker to GT modular system. And I actually DO realise that the Ramjets in FFS are for vehicles, not for bullets and therefor don't scale down very well. Neither does any other engine there or IRL (Try building a jet engine for a scale model - most use an Impeller for good reasons)

As for the rest I basically disagree with ALL of them:

Nezumi tries to convert the CP2020 Ramjet Rifle, not a TNE/FFS RAMJET. And the weapon he does convert IS a very good rifle under CP2020 rules. Like many SR/CP systems it can NOT be constructed by any of the design systems (Striker, FSS1/FSS2, GURPS, GGG) out there since it is designed by the good old NFTA (Numbers from Thin Air) system

RAMs of the size you describe (40x60mm) WILL either be a pure rocket and therefor have an extremly low starting velocity (Read the stuff on the real life Gyrojet from the link) or a Grenade Launcher (NOT RPG) with booster rocket. The later will burn out after 1-2 seconds since a 40x46mm burns ALL of it's propellant to get a measly 80m/sec IRL

Speed of any launched grenade NEVER adds to concussion something FFS models quite well and marginally if at all to explosive damage. That actually is the beauty of explosive rounds. As for pure payload, you are comparing apples (A NFTA slug thrower) with Aliens (A grenade launcher) here

A Ramjet has a basic speed of a pistol bullet when it ignites, actually faster than a .45ACP since it is supersonic. It accellerates rather quickly so depending on range it is more effective than certain bullets if one can build it.

A bullet uses totally different aerodynamic designs than a plane or a missile. Compare a 7.92x57JS (easily supersonic) at 750+ m/s to an F4 Phantom (also easily supersonic) to an AIM-120 AMRAAM (also supersonic)

As a final word: No, I do not like EITHER of your concepts. A KE grenade launcher makes no sense (otherwise one would have been build IRL) and the try to reproduce a weapon with a design system for vehicles makes even less. There is a reason FFS seperates weapons from vehicles like most other design systems do. You don't build a Guided missile (except SIM) as a spacecraft either under FFS IIRC.

cetiah View Member Profile	Feb 21 2007, 04:45 AM Post #58
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510	edit: removed

cetiah

Feb 21 2007, 04:59 AM

Post #59

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QUOTE

Like many SR/CP systems it can NOT be constructed by any of the design systems (Striker, FSS1/FSS2, GURPS, GGG) out there since it is designed by the good old NFTA (Numbers from Thin Air) system

QUOTE

....and the try to reproduce a weapon with a design system for vehicles makes even less. There is a reason FFS seperates weapons from vehicles like most other design systems do. You don't build a Guided missile (except SIM) as a spacecraft either under FFS IIRC.

Alright. Never convert anything then. Never try to interpret or extrapolate anything. Never try to use design rules to design original stuff or future technology. Just forget it. Pull numbers from thin air for all your game design purposes. I really don't care anymore.

Darkwalker

Feb 21 2007, 11:51 AM

Post #60

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QUOTE (cetiah)

QUOTE

Like many SR/CP systems it can NOT be constructed by any of the design systems (Striker, FSS1/FSS2, GURPS, GGG) out there since it is designed by the good old NFTA (Numbers from Thin Air) system

QUOTE

....and the try to reproduce a weapon with a design system for vehicles makes even less. There is a reason FFS seperates weapons from vehicles like most other design systems do. You don't build a Guided missile (except SIM) as a spacecraft either under FFS IIRC.

Alright. Never convert anything then. Never try to interpret or extrapolate anything. Never try to use design rules to design original stuff or future technology. Just forget it. Pull numbers from thin air for all your game design purposes. I really don't care anymore.

Okay one final question:

Are you dense or are you just trying to pick a fight?

This quote simply states that FFS has TWO design systems, one for weapons and one for vehicles. Again, that is a FACT from the rules-book.

QUOTE

....and the try to reproduce a weapon with a design system for vehicles makes even less. There is a reason FFS seperates weapons from vehicles like most other design systems do. You don't build a Guided missile (except SIM) as a spacecraft either under FFS IIRC.

and this quote that is NOT related to the one above but a comment on the CP Chromebook only:

QUOTE

Like many SR/CP systems it can NOT be constructed by any of the design systems (Striker, FSS1/FSS2, GURPS, GGG) out there since it is designed by the good old NFTA (Numbers from Thin Air) system

simply states that the weapons in the Chromebooks are not designed with ANY system. CP's parent (Interlock) has a design system (Mecton Zeta Plus) but neiter the Chromebooks NOR MaxMetal make use of it. None of the weapons or vehicles can be build with MZP.

So your comment

QUOTE

Alright. Never convert anything then. Never try to interpret or extrapolate anything. Never try to use design rules to design original stuff or future technology. Just forget it. Pull numbers from thin air for all your game design purposes. I really don't care anymore.

either means you can not understand the diffrences or you do not want to understand them. So once more and written slowly:

+ Game-specific design systems work within a given game system
+ Some design systems (Gurps) produce results that can be exported to other games since they are close to reality for the current In-Game TL
+ Others (FFS, Striker, MT, MZT) don't. So exporting them makes no sense.
+ If a game system has a design system, I'll use it. If not, I don't. So IIRC I use StarCruiser for 2300AD spaceships but NFTA for 2300AD ground vehicles since 2300AD has no vehicle design system, MaxMetal for CP PowerSuits and Vehicles but NFTA for CP weapons since CP has no weapon design system. And so on.
+ If a game system has different design sequences for different things, one should use them as designed, not mix them or re-interpret them.

Darkwalker View Member Profile	Feb 21 2007, 12:00 PM Post #61
Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 27-September 06 Member No.: 9,483	Some Chromebook stuff I'd like to see converted: + The Malorian Arms Pistol. Basically a hv. Pistol that fires a Rifle-Powered round and needs a Cyberarm to be useful + The M31A, a lightweight Liquid Propellant rifle with small (25mm) repeatung grenade launcher. Just add Hicks. + The Anti-Matter rifle and the EMG portabel railgun + Some of the Stuff from the "Kick the Ara" books (Stormfront/Firestorm) like the Endorphine Boost ("I feel fine, never made much use of my left leg anyway") + The Implant Computer (NOT Cyberdeck) and most of the Computer (Not Cyberdeck) and Telefone Add-ons + The Cyberforms from the CP and their big brothers from CHALLENGE (Go Ardeck!) and Firestorm. Read Firestorm, watch Dark Angel, compare dates and you know that at least one Skriptwriter was a CP gamer ;) + Any Chance we get the Dragoons "Combat Crystal" Group link from the Dragoon. + Neural Bridge (Ambidexterity in a gray lump) and some of the other "survival" bioware from CP4

cetiah

Feb 21 2007, 02:29 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (Darkwalker @ Feb 21 2007, 06:51 AM)

+ Game-specific design systems work within a given game system
+ Some design systems (Gurps) produce results that can be exported to other games since they are close to reality for the current In-Game TL
+ Others (FFS, Striker, MT, MZT) don't. So exporting them makes no sense.
+ If a game system has a design system, I'll use it. If not, I don't. So IIRC I use StarCruiser for 2300AD spaceships but NFTA for 2300AD ground vehicles since 2300AD has no vehicle design system, MaxMetal for CP PowerSuits and Vehicles but NFTA for CP weapons since CP has no weapon design system. And so on.
+ If a game system has different design sequences for different things, one should use them as designed, not mix them or re-interpret them.

That's it? That's been your point this whole time?

I say "here's a conversion from Traveller" and your response if "you shouldn't convert stuff from Traveller"? How is that at all useful to anybody?!

I designed the ramjet as best I could for Traveller TNE based on the resources available. Call that converting or importing or whatever. I did it because I thought it would be fun because Traveller TNE doesn't have a ramjet but it has weapon design rules and the basic tech is (or should be) there.

Then, because I thought it would be useful, I eyeballed the Traveller TNE stats and came up with what I feel were approximately equivilent Shadowrun stats that looked appropriate for the weapon. Again, I did this because it was fun and because I thought it would be helpful to the original poster.

This is a conversion, not a direct exportation. I used the concept of a ramjet to build something equivilent and used that to build something equivilent for Shadowrun. And you've been on my case about it this whole time because you don't like the terms I'm using or because the weapon doesn't exist in real life or whatever... I really don't know what you're objecting to other than the fact that you don't like building a ramjet because there is no section maked "Ramjets" in the book.

Using the Traveller design rules was the POINT of my experiment to see if I can get marginally useful results. You replying with the fact that I shouldn't be using other game's design rules isn't altogether that helpful. You've never even specified what it is about the results that you didn't like other than you hated the fact that I called a slug bullet a really small KE grenade.

---

The aircraft rules were only consulted as a reference in response to a question of the feasability of ramjets. For this I looked at the existing ramjet technology and compared it to the existing rocket technology at the same techlevel to get an idea of how efficient each engine was at producing thrust. Certain conclusions were deducted from there. That's it. I didn't use the aircraft rules to design the weapon and you claiming I did is just building up more and more straw-man arguments.

P.S. Where can I go to find this GURPS system? Is it in the basic rulebook?

Darkwalker View Member Profile	Feb 21 2007, 02:36 PM Post #63
Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 27-September 06 Member No.: 9,483	The GURPS design system is in GURPS Vehicles 2. Edition. As for the rest, re-read the posts, I stated my problems with your approach quite a few times.

nezumi

Feb 21 2007, 03:35 PM

Post #64

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QUOTE (Darkwalker)

Some Chromebook stuff I'd like to see converted:

+ The Malorian Arms Pistol. Basically a hv. Pistol that fires a Rifle-Powered round and needs a Cyberarm to be useful

This is actually the first weapon posted in this thread :) It isn't called that, but it's still basically what you asked for. It's based off that pistol I keep seeing pictures of that fires the .50 caliber bullets.

QUOTE

+ The M31A, a lightweight Liquid Propellant rifle with small (25mm) repeatung grenade launcher. Just add Hicks.

What's the difference between that and the ares antioch?

QUOTE

+ The Anti-Matter rifle and the EMG portabel railgun

That I saw and decided against, sorry. The rail gun technology in SR is not close to what exists in CP2020. To put in a man-portable railgun would run the very serious risk of providing an unbalanced, "obviously better" gun, which is what I'd like to avoid. My primary concern is keeping things balanced and, if anything, underpowered. If memory serves, the anti-matter rifle was just a super big anti-material rifle, not an actual anti-matter gun. Take an assault canon and change its name :P

QUOTE

+ Some of the Stuff from the "Kick the Ara" books (Stormfront/Firestorm) like the Endorphine Boost ("I feel fine, never made much use of my left leg anyway")

I don't have that book. What sort of stuff is in it? If you have a list of neat things, I'd love to mull them over (although chemicals I've been avoiding, since I hate the SR chemical rules. If I had a good enough list, I'd brave them, though. With just one or two neat chems, I'll skip all the details.)

QUOTE

+ The Implant Computer (NOT Cyberdeck) and most of the Computer (Not Cyberdeck) and Telefone Add-ons

So what piece of SR cyber would you consider a computer? A personal secretary? A trid? I'd assume a p-sec could do everything a trid could do except show TV and radio. If I made an implantable p-sec, would that meet your desire? I do agree, it's a useful bit of cyber.

QUOTE

+ The Cyberforms from the CP and their big brothers from CHALLENGE (Go Ardeck!) and Firestorm. Read Firestorm, watch Dark Angel, compare dates and you know that at least one Skriptwriter was a CP gamer ;)

What is a cyberform? Is that like powered armor? A full body replacement?

QUOTE

+ Any Chance we get the Dragoons "Combat Crystal" Group link from the Dragoon.

This is a group of NPCs? I'm not writing up NPCs right now, just equipment, but I might in the future, if people are interested in it.

QUOTE

+ Neural Bridge (Ambidexterity in a gray lump) and some of the other "survival" bioware from CP4

I looked at these. Most of the survival bioware is actually already available in SR. Digestive expansion covers two or three pieces of CP cyber. Expanded volume, metabolic arrester, synthacardium, toxin filter, sleep regulator, chloroplast skin, clean metabolism, all these already exist in SR and cover most of the CP survival bioware. I remember reading each of the CP items, thinking 'boy, that's cool', then flipping to M&M to find something to build off of and finding almost the exact same piece of ware under a new name. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the authors of one were aware of the work of the other.

The one exception to that is the neural bridge. That one I sat on for about two hours. I did some research into ambidexterity, looked at the edge values, etc. That's the one sore spot where I really wanted to included, but I felt, due to the fact that I don't think it reflects how ambidexterity actually works and, more importantly, how tremendously powerful ambidexterity is as an edge, I couldn't safely include it. There are a few items that I didn't include for one reason or another that I really wanted to. That piece is the only one that left me feeling frustrated.

So if you figure out a way to design it without upsetting balance (remember, ambidexterity is the ONLY edge that has a value above 6 points, and for very good reason!), I'll include it. But I couldn't figure out how to easily do it.

Darkwalker View Member Profile	Feb 21 2007, 04:04 PM Post #65
Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 27-September 06 Member No.: 9,483	[QUOTE=nezumi][QUOTE=Darkwalker]Some Chromebook stuff I'd like to see converted: + The Malorian Arms Pistol. Basically a hv. Pistol that fires a Rifle-Powered round and needs a Cyberarm to be useful [/QUOTE] This is actually the first weapon posted in this thread :) It isn't called that, but it's still basically what you asked for. It's based off that pistol I keep seeing pictures of that fires the .50 caliber bullets. [/QUOTE] Gah! Now that you say it I remember it. Me getting old. [QUOTE] [QUOTE] + The M31A, a lightweight Liquid Propellant rifle with small (25mm) repeatung grenade launcher. Just add Hicks.[/QUOTE] What's the difference between that and the ares antioch? [/QUOTE] I must admit the Antioch does not strike a chord here. Where is the beast? [QUOTE] [QUOTE] + The Anti-Matter rifle and the EMG portabel railgun[/QUOTE] That I saw and decided against, sorry. The rail gun technology in SR is not close to what exists in CP2020. To put in a man-portable railgun would run the very serious risk of providing an unbalanced, "obviously better" gun, which is what I'd like to avoid. My primary concern is keeping things balanced and, if anything, underpowered. If memory serves, the anti-matter rifle was just a super big anti-material rifle, not an actual anti-matter gun. Take an assault canon and change its name :P [/QUOTE] But, but it was called that way "because you can shoot the f... Starship Enterprise out of orbit with it" to quote one of the users. 8) I look into it and rate it against the B-A 20mm (the Panther Equivalent from Cp2020) [QUOTE] [QUOTE] + Some of the Stuff from the "Kick the Ara" books (Stormfront/Firestorm) like the Endorphine Boost ("I feel fine, never made much use of my left leg anyway")[/QUOTE] I don't have that book. What sort of stuff is in it? If you have a list of neat things, I'd love to mull them over (although chemicals I've been avoiding, since I hate the SR chemical rules. If I had a good enough list, I'd brave them, though. With just one or two neat chems, I'll skip all the details.) [/QUOTE] I'll go through this in detail but from the top of my head: + Some new armors and armor options (may end up as SecArmor equivalents) + Some stuff for netrunners including the Net equivalent to an Improvised Explosive Device + Self-Heating, Inflateabel dummies to build fake combat positions + The Endorphine Booster Cyberware that boost the natural painkiller. Lot's of not so nice side effects. + A number of drohnes (Rigger 3 Fans to the front) + A number of vehicle concepts (Rigger 3 Fans to the front) + Some stuff on underwater gear and waterproofing [QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ The Implant Computer (NOT Cyberdeck) and most of the Computer (Not Cyberdeck) and Telefone Add-ons[/QUOTE] So what piece of SR cyber would you consider a computer? A personal secretary? A trid? I'd assume a p-sec could do everything a trid could do except show TV and radio. If I made an implantable p-sec, would that meet your desire? I do agree, it's a useful bit of cyber. [QUOTE] Depends a bit what you see in a pocket secretary but if you see this as a current generation WinCE PDA (Programmabel etc) then yes, it's an implant PSec, needs either an output jack and external screen/sound or a VidLink and CyberSound [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ The Cyberforms from the CP and their big brothers from CHALLENGE (Go Ardeck!) and Firestorm. Read Firestorm, watch Dark Angel, compare dates and you know that at least one Skriptwriter was a CP gamer ;)[/QUOTE] What is a cyberform? Is that like powered armor? A full body replacement? [/QUOTE] Sorry. Cyberforms are robots that use organic components for some brain functions. The pro is they are a quite a bit smarter, the con is they sometimes develop a mind of their own. The big one (CHALLENGE, Beast of Boston) was armed with missiles, a maschine gun, grenade launcher and claws, being about Ork-sized. The small ones can be as small as a 30x10x10cm and look like a giant spider. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ Any Chance we get the Dragoons "Combat Crystal" Group link from the Dragoon.[/QUOTE] This is a group of NPCs? I'm not writing up NPCs right now, just equipment, but I might in the future, if people are interested in it. [/QUOTE] Dragoons are combat full body replacements that are basically the CP equivalent to a Cyberzombie. They can have a cyberware names CombatCrystal that functions like an advanced version of the SR military Datalink/TacComp. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ Neural Bridge (Ambidexterity in a gray lump) and some of the other "survival" bioware from CP4[/QUOTE] I looked at these. Most of the survival bioware is actually already available in SR. Digestive expansion covers two or three pieces of CP cyber. Expanded volume, metabolic arrester, synthacardium, toxin filter, sleep regulator, chloroplast skin, clean metabolism, all these already exist in SR and cover most of the CP survival bioware. I remember reading each of the CP items, thinking 'boy, that's cool', then flipping to M&M to find something to build off of and finding almost the exact same piece of ware under a new name. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the authors of one were aware of the work of the other. The one exception to that is the neural bridge. That one I sat on for about two hours. I did some research into ambidexterity, looked at the edge values, etc. That's the one sore spot where I really wanted to included, but I felt, due to the fact that I don't think it reflects how ambidexterity actually works and, more importantly, how tremendously powerful ambidexterity is as an edge, I couldn't safely include it. There are a few items that I didn't include for one reason or another that I really wanted to. That piece is the only one that left me feeling frustrated. So if you figure out a way to design it without upsetting balance (remember, ambidexterity is the ONLY edge that has a value above 6 points, and for very good reason!), I'll include it. But I couldn't figure out how to easily do it. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Darkwalker]Some Chromebook stuff I'd like to see converted: + The Malorian Arms Pistol. Basically a hv. Pistol that fires a Rifle-Powered round and needs a Cyberarm to be useful [/QUOTE] This is actually the first weapon posted in this thread :) It isn't called that, but it's still basically what you asked for. It's based off that pistol I keep seeing pictures of that fires the .50 caliber bullets. [/QUOTE] Gah! Now that you say it I remember it. Me getting old. [QUOTE] [QUOTE] + The M31A, a lightweight Liquid Propellant rifle with small (25mm) repeatung grenade launcher. Just add Hicks.[/QUOTE] What's the difference between that and the ares antioch? [/QUOTE] I must admit the Antioch does not strike a chord here. Where is the beast? [QUOTE] [QUOTE] + The Anti-Matter rifle and the EMG portabel railgun[/QUOTE] That I saw and decided against, sorry. The rail gun technology in SR is not close to what exists in CP2020. To put in a man-portable railgun would run the very serious risk of providing an unbalanced, "obviously better" gun, which is what I'd like to avoid. My primary concern is keeping things balanced and, if anything, underpowered. If memory serves, the anti-matter rifle was just a super big anti-material rifle, not an actual anti-matter gun. Take an assault canon and change its name :P [/QUOTE] But, but it was called that way "because you can shoot the f... Starship Enterprise out of orbit with it" to quote one of the users. 8) I look into it and rate it against the B-A 20mm (the Panther Equivalent from Cp2020) [QUOTE] [QUOTE] + Some of the Stuff from the "Kick the Ara" books (Stormfront/Firestorm) like the Endorphine Boost ("I feel fine, never made much use of my left leg anyway")[/QUOTE] I don't have that book. What sort of stuff is in it? If you have a list of neat things, I'd love to mull them over (although chemicals I've been avoiding, since I hate the SR chemical rules. If I had a good enough list, I'd brave them, though. With just one or two neat chems, I'll skip all the details.) [/QUOTE] I'll go through this in detail but from the top of my head: + Some new armors and armor options (may end up as SecArmor equivalents) + Some stuff for netrunners including the Net equivalent to an Improvised Explosive Device + Self-Heating, Inflateabel dummies to build fake combat positions + The Endorphine Booster Cyberware that boost the natural painkiller. Lot's of not so nice side effects. + A number of drohnes (Rigger 3 Fans to the front) + A number of vehicle concepts (Rigger 3 Fans to the front) + Some stuff on underwater gear and waterproofing [QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ The Implant Computer (NOT Cyberdeck) and most of the Computer (Not Cyberdeck) and Telefone Add-ons[/QUOTE] So what piece of SR cyber would you consider a computer? A personal secretary? A trid? I'd assume a p-sec could do everything a trid could do except show TV and radio. If I made an implantable p-sec, would that meet your desire? I do agree, it's a useful bit of cyber. [QUOTE] Depends a bit what you see in a pocket secretary but if you see this as a current generation WinCE PDA (Programmabel etc) then yes, it's an implant PSec, needs either an output jack and external screen/sound or a VidLink and CyberSound [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ The Cyberforms from the CP and their big brothers from CHALLENGE (Go Ardeck!) and Firestorm. Read Firestorm, watch Dark Angel, compare dates and you know that at least one Skriptwriter was a CP gamer ;)[/QUOTE] What is a cyberform? Is that like powered armor? A full body replacement? [/QUOTE] Sorry. Cyberforms are robots that use organic components for some brain functions. The pro is they are a quite a bit smarter, the con is they sometimes develop a mind of their own. The big one (CHALLENGE, Beast of Boston) was armed with missiles, a maschine gun, grenade launcher and claws, being about Ork-sized. The small ones can be as small as a 30x10x10cm and look like a giant spider. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ Any Chance we get the Dragoons "Combat Crystal" Group link from the Dragoon.[/QUOTE] This is a group of NPCs? I'm not writing up NPCs right now, just equipment, but I might in the future, if people are interested in it. [/QUOTE] Dragoons are combat full body replacements that are basically the CP equivalent to a Cyberzombie. They can have a cyberware names CombatCrystal that functions like an advanced version of the SR military Datalink/TacComp. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]+ Neural Bridge (Ambidexterity in a gray lump) and some of the other "survival" bioware from CP4[/QUOTE] I looked at these. Most of the survival bioware is actually already available in SR. Digestive expansion covers two or three pieces of CP cyber. Expanded volume, metabolic arrester, synthacardium, toxin filter, sleep regulator, chloroplast skin, clean metabolism, all these already exist in SR and cover most of the CP survival bioware. I remember reading each of the CP items, thinking 'boy, that's cool', then flipping to M&M to find something to build off of and finding almost the exact same piece of ware under a new name. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the authors of one were aware of the work of the other. The one exception to that is the neural bridge. That one I sat on for about two hours. I did some research into ambidexterity, looked at the edge values, etc. That's the one sore spot where I really wanted to included, but I felt, due to the fact that I don't think it reflects how ambidexterity actually works and, more importantly, how tremendously powerful ambidexterity is as an edge, I couldn't safely include it. There are a few items that I didn't include for one reason or another that I really wanted to. That piece is the only one that left me feeling frustrated. So if you figure out a way to design it without upsetting balance (remember, ambidexterity is the ONLY edge that has a value above 6 points, and for very good reason!), I'll include it. But I couldn't figure out how to easily do it. [/QUOTE] Neither could I so far. :D Maybe restricting it to Lv 1 and 2 of Ambidexterity.

Herald of Verjig...

Feb 21 2007, 05:07 PM

Post #66

Runner

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QUOTE (Darkwalker)

Sorry. Cyberforms are robots that use organic components for some brain functions. The pro is they are a quite a bit smarter, the con is they sometimes develop a mind of their own. The big one (CHALLENGE, Beast of Boston) was armed with missiles, a maschine gun, grenade launcher and claws, being about Ork-sized. The small ones can be as small as a 30x10x10cm and look like a giant spider.

Sounds like a cheaper but more unstable variant of the robotic pilot options in Rigger 3. It also opens up the way for potential players to try to justify playing as KITT and still getting and using karma (car-ma?).

nezumi

Feb 21 2007, 06:44 PM

Post #67

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (Darkwalker)

QUOTE (nezumi)

QUOTE (Darkwalker)

Some Chromebook stuff I'd like to see converted:

+ The Malorian Arms Pistol. Basically a hv. Pistol that fires a Rifle-Powered round and needs a Cyberarm to be useful

This is actually the first weapon posted in this thread :) It isn't called that, but it's still basically what you asked for. It's based off that pistol I keep seeing pictures of that fires the .50 caliber bullets.

Gah! Now that you say it I remember it. Me getting old.

S'alright. Glad to see you thought it was a good idea.

QUOTE

What's the difference between that and the ares antioch?
...
I must admit the Antioch does not strike a chord here. Where is the beast?

The main book. It's the grenade launcher in the Heavy Weapons section, even though it has a conceal of 6, making it about the size of a heavy pistol.

QUOTE

+ Some of the Stuff from the "Kick the Ara" books (Stormfront/Firestorm) like the Endorphine Boost ("I feel fine, never made much use of my left leg anyway")
...
I'll go through this in detail but from the top of my head:
+ Some new armors and armor options (may end up as SecArmor equivalents)
+ Some stuff for netrunners including the Net equivalent to an Improvised Explosive Device
+ Self-Heating, Inflateabel dummies to build fake combat positions
+ The Endorphine Booster Cyberware that boost the natural painkiller. Lot's of not so nice side effects.
+ A number of drohnes (Rigger 3 Fans to the front)
+ A number of vehicle concepts (Rigger 3 Fans to the front)
+ Some stuff on underwater gear and waterproofing

I'd have to see more details, unfortunately. The dummies I could obviously do, and that sounds like a neat idea. The other stuff I couldn't do unless you wrote up much more of a description :P If you'd like to make your own list of gear, I can look over it and cherry-pick what I'd like. I'd love to have some more sources for my list (if only so I don't need to do all the work myself!)

QUOTE

So what piece of SR cyber would you consider a computer? A personal secretary? A trid? I'd assume a p-sec could do everything a trid could do except show TV and radio. If I made an implantable p-sec, would that meet your desire? I do agree, it's a useful bit of cyber.

QUOTE

Depends a bit what you see in a pocket secretary but if you see this as a current generation WinCE PDA (Programmabel etc) then yes, it's an implant PSec, needs either an output jack and external screen/sound or a VidLink and CyberSound

Alright, I think I'll toss that one in then! Good thing you caught me before the Security items or cyber!

QUOTE

Sorry. Cyberforms are robots that use organic components for some brain functions. The pro is they are a quite a bit smarter, the con is they sometimes develop a mind of their own. The big one (CHALLENGE, Beast of Boston) was armed with missiles, a maschine gun, grenade launcher and claws, being about Ork-sized. The small ones can be as small as a 30x10x10cm and look like a giant spider.

I will have to consider that. Honestly, it'd probably have to be grouped with full body replacements. Shadowrun has a lot of rules on how you can combine intelligence and metal (or more accurately, how you can't combine them). It would be difficult to create a 'animal brain in a chrome body' sort of thing without carefully considering the ramifications on magic and essence. Any other thoughts on this one?

QUOTE

Dragoons are combat full body replacements that are basically the CP equivalent to a Cyberzombie. They can have a cyberware names CombatCrystal that functions like an advanced version of the SR military Datalink/TacComp.

I have full body replacements, but nothing quite as extensive as CP (and as optional things on the last page, so I can say 'look, it's cool, look at it, but never ever use it'). I literally printed above them 'these are not for use'. As has been said earlier, they are way too powerful and the essence rules completely mess up the concept. They aren't easy to port in, and something to the point of the bodies they have in the later chrome books would be impossible to do in a balanced fashion. Wait until my final posts and you can see what I HAVE done, and work with me on making them balanced, but don't expect anything as crazy as Dragoons, sorry.

QUOTE

Neither could I so far. :D Maybe restricting it to Lv 1 and 2 of Ambidexterity.

I had considered it. It would at least partially reduce the pawnage it would cause. I just wonder if people feel like it would be realistic then. Hey, I know, if you get it, it causes all sorts of weird neuroses from the two sides of the brain exchanging information they shouldn't. If it gives you 4 points of mental flaws for 8 points of edge, the result would be 100 points of awesome.

Keep in mind my first post with this stuff though. Balance is absolutely my first concern. Keeping it in-line with the existing SR world is my second concern. Some of your ideas, while awesome, would violate one rule or the other. I'm well aware of the fact that if I include one or two over-powered or non-sensical items, the result will be that people toss out my entire list. So I would rather not include things which may be 'questionable'.

Darkwalker View Member Profile	Feb 21 2007, 06:59 PM Post #68
Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 27-September 06 Member No.: 9,483	nezumi: I sure don't want to see Dragoons in SR, I don't even use them in CP, thats what Genom BU-55C and BU-12B Boomers are for :D But the combat crystal cyberware system in itself might be useful even for normal operatives. A kind of advanced BattleTec/TacComp implant. This is a rather low-impact piece of Ware in CP and IIRC not restricted to Dragoons. As for the rest it will take until the weekend since my SR stuff is in storage as is quite a bit of CP.

Darkwalker

Feb 21 2007, 07:03 PM

Post #69

Target

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Feb 21 2007, 12:07 PM)

QUOTE (Darkwalker @ Feb 21 2007, 11:04 AM)

Sorry. Cyberforms are robots that use organic components for some brain functions. The pro is they are a quite a bit smarter, the con is they sometimes develop a mind of their own. The big one (CHALLENGE, Beast of Boston) was armed with missiles, a maschine gun, grenade launcher and claws, being about Ork-sized. The small ones can be as small as a 30x10x10cm and look like a giant spider.

Sounds like a cheaper but more unstable variant of the robotic pilot options in Rigger 3. It also opens up the way for potential players to try to justify playing as KITT and still getting and using karma (car-ma?).

If I play K.I.T.T,

+ do I Have to take Michael Knight as a dependend (and do I get points for him)
+ Can I flirt with Bonnie Barstow?

cetiah

Feb 22 2007, 05:28 AM

Post #70

Moving Target

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QUOTE

+ do I Have to take Michael Knight as a dependend (and do I get points for him)

No worries - the very basic idea behind the Michael Knight design was that he is independant, just like all the other independant rebels out there. In fact, you could probably just drop him off somewhere and let him wander off on his own or give him instructions like you would to a drone. He won't follow them, though.

QUOTE

+ Can I flirt with Bonnie Barstow?

Why not? Everyone else does.

Link View Member Profile	Feb 23 2007, 03:56 AM Post #71
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180	Are the Chromebooks available as text pdf's anywhere? Nezumi, are you using the Plastic Warriors Chromebook conversions at all. No point in reinventing items for SR if the PW CB version works.

Sir_Psycho View Member Profile	Feb 23 2007, 04:22 AM Post #72
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361	Maybe I missed something... but isn't all this covered by Plastic Warriors? Project 3? Paranoid Animals of North America?

nezumi

Feb 23 2007, 02:44 PM

Post #73

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (Link)

Nezumi, are you using the Plastic Warriors Chromebook conversions at all. No point in reinventing items for SR if the PW CB version works.

Not especially, no.

The reason I'm not using Plastic Warriors conversions is the same reason most people don't use them; they're tremendously unbalanced and inappropriate for a conventional SR game. I, for one, would simply not be comfortable using their rules. They have too many things, including things which already exist in SR, and the majority of their things are so much better than any current SR equipment, it would completely change the game.

So my goal isn't to make a "pure" conversion. It's to do a selective, balanced conversion. As far as I am aware, there has been no conversion done previously which paid any heed to maintaining the current costs and effectiveness of gear.

nezumi View Member Profile	Feb 27 2007, 04:37 PM Post #74
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Thank you all for the comments so far. I have made a few good adjustments (and two new additions). This post basically wraps up the non-cyber for a while. Security Measures [ Spoiler ] Knight Errant Personal Body Alarm Following the fantastic success of corporations such as DocWagon, Knight Errant has begun its own Personal Body Alarm service. A client is given a small, plastic card, about the size of an ID card. When broken, Knight Errant promises response within four minutes to any location within Seattle, including all Ares facilities, but discounting territory of other AAA megacorps. When purchased, the buyer decides how many teams will be sent when the card is broken. Each additional team is, cost-wise, like purchasing a second card, however they're all called with a single action. Each team leaves separately, from a different location, so multiple teams marginally increase the response time, in addition to increasing the overall firepower sent. Each team consists of two riggers, two gunners and one magical over watch member, at minimum. It may call in reinforcements if appropriate. Knight Errant does not charge extra for the loss of Knight Errant crewmen, but does not guarantee a successful retrieval either. The card is worth a single rescue, although Knight Errant has made a show of sometimes "forgiving" clients who accidentally break the card in non-emergency circumstances. Should the situation be considered "risky", but not an emergency, the client may press a button on the card which will send a single, unmarked armored car to retrieve the client. This is a 200¥ charge (800¥ in Z zones) and is billed separately, without invalidating the card. Conceal Weight Avail. Cost St. Index Legal Personal Body Alarm (per team) 8 - On Payment 5,000¥ - Legal Single pickup N/A - On call 200¥ - Legal Security Countermeasures [ Spoiler ] Latex Face Mask This is a single-use latex face mask kit, meant to create a single mask based off a mold or biometric readings (quality of the mask is based off of the rating of the readings, to a maximum of 8. If the mask is made based off a voluntary subject, the rating is automatically 8.) ID Badgemaker A physical and virtual toolkit, designed to work with a personal computer. It can print out radio-capable, photo ID keycards and IDs. With the appropriate templates and security information, this can be used to make a rating 6 facsimile of a real badge, however the radio component must be programmed separately. Inflatable Dummy A small package, about the size of a camera bag, which contains an inflatable, heat-generating, human-sized dummy. When unsealed, it automatically inflates itself in approximately one minute. The interior is brushed with a chemical that causes an endothermic reaction, heating the dummy to approximately 100 degrees farenheit (this may change depending on humidity and outside temperature). The human-shaped, human-sized dummy can then be weighted or tied down, creating a human silhouette in any heat or visual-sensors. It is obviously fake to ultra-sound or with 3 or more successes on a Perception(6) test. It will continue generating heat for approximately four hours. Conceal Weight Avail. Cost St. Index Legal Latex Face Mask 8 1 4/1 day 500¥ 1 Legal ID Badgemaker 6 5 8/2 weeks 1,000¥ 1.25 4P-U Inflatable Dummy 6 4 6/2 weeks 500¥ 2 Legal Musical Instruments [ Spoiler ] No cyberpunk life is complete without a little bit of punk. Musical instruments are in order to flip out and really get pumped, although most runner groups may decide they're unnecessary to the average run. Remember, Active and Knowledge skills are the difference between knowing how to do something and actually being able to do it. Just having an axe doesn't make you a rocker. Until outfitted with actual explosives or the other 'little touches' runners tend to enjoy, all musical instruments are legal. Weight Avail. Cost St. Index Gibson Synthaxe 3 4/1 day 1,500¥ 1.2 MK-449C Throbber 5 6/2 days 2,000¥ 1.2 Renraku Synthlink 3 4/1 day 1,500¥ 1 Amp (small) 1 4/1 day 100¥ .9 Amp (medium) 4 6/2 days 400¥ 1 Amp (defeaning) 10 6/1 week 2,000¥ 1.5 Comments? Questions?

Sir_Psycho View Member Profile	Feb 28 2007, 01:17 AM Post #75
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361	What's a throbber? And more importantly, are these inflatable dummies... anatomically correct? ;)

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