Need help from gun gurus re 7.62 Tokarev, HOW DO FIREARMS REALISM!!!????? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Wounded Ronin]

I've decided to introduce two submachineguns which use 7.62 Tokarev into a mod I'm making of Fallout 2. This means that I need to write up stats for that particular cartridge. I therefore have two specific questions which I am hoping someone cool like Raygun might be able to help me with.

1.) How does 7.62 Tokarev compare to .44 magnum in terms of punching through armor?

2.) How traumatic would being hit by 7.62 Tokarev compare to being hit by any commonly seen cartridge today? I realize this question is a bit wishy washy, so I'm only really asking for a guess or opinion.

[Austere Emancipa...]

It really comes down to the kind of loads used, since the 7.62x25mm TT can apparently be loaded and safely fired at much greater pressures than what the standard military loads are.

In a post-apocalyptic setting I guess people would mostly have old military ammo. From SMG barrels, you'd be looking at something like 1600fps for 85-grain FMJs, for 483ft-lbs of KE at the muzzle. That's 18% more KE per unit of area at a slightly higher velocity, compared to the high velocity 9x19mm FMJs level IIIA vests are tested against, but less KE per unit of area than the .44 Magnum loads used for the tests (240 grains at 1400fps).

Based on that, I'd guess average 7.62x25mm SMG loads are going to penetrate body armor just about as well as .44 Magnums from 6" barrels -- the slightly lower KE per area offset by the slightly higher impact velocity -- as long as the bullets are similar. A 7.62x25mm FMJ will likely penetrate armor better than any .44 Magnum deforming rounds and vice versa (in case you're putting in both FMJ and JHP or similar rounds for these calibers).

But since any .44 Magnum round that does penetrate will tend to do far more damage to whatever tissue comes after the armor than the 7.62x25mm, make sure the 7.62x25mm never quite catches up to the .44 in terms of modified damage, regardless of the kind of armor worn.

As for lethality, we're talking about seriously small bullets here, and still clearly at handgun velocities -- even if very high handgun velocities. With FMJs, they will obviously make wounds smaller than 9x19mm FMJs to humans. With well chosen controlled expansion bullets, they might be pretty close to 9x19mm JHPs in that respect.

[HullBreach]

As I understand it the Russians love this chambering for their SMG's due to the fantastic penetration of the rounds compared to other commonly availible soviet ammunitions.

Another factor about these rounds abillity to penetrate body armor is that they are very narrow pointed projectiles, unlike the blunted almost wadcutter type frequently used in revolvers like the mentioned .44.

This is the reason why many new PDW type submachineguns like the MP-7 or P-90 are using relatively narrow and sharply pointed projectiles.

Look at it this way, Your standing in front of some drywall, and you need hit somthing on the other side. You can easily stab a knife through it, but a baseball bat might take a swing or two. Why? All of the energy is focussed on a tiny point with the knife, but the bat spreads it out over a greater area.

Not the best example, but it serves.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The most common shape for military 7.62x25mm FMJ/ball seems to be round-nosed, almost exactly the same shape as the US/NATO standard 9x19mm M882 FMJ-RN. The bullet is certainly narrower, of course. :) [Edit]Here's a line-up of common 9x19mm military FMJ rounds, and here of 7.62x25mm equivalents.[/url]

If you're interested in penetrating something relatively soft, like air, flesh, or perhaps drywall, a sharper spitzer shape is a definite advantage. However, once you hit something that's in the same range of toughness as the bullet itself, you can in fact be better off with a blunter shape, so that a narrow leading edge of the bullet cannot begin to deform and give way as it impacts and in this way prolong and spread the impact and reduce peak pressures.

Any .44 Magnum SJHP, 9x19mm FMJ, or Soviet-style 7.62x25mm TT FMJ , regardless of the exact shape of the bullet nose, is likely deform a lot when it impacts level IIIA body armor, so I'm not sure how much help a more pointed spitzer shape would be with these thin-jacketed lead-core bullets.