Specialization of characters Options

[Garrowolf]

One of the things that I have noticed is that I have a different view of characters then some people when it comes to shadowrun. I think that each character type should be different from each other and that they shouldn't overlap much at all. Each pc should have a distinctive role and method if possible.

Other people seem to want the characters to overlap as much as possible. I think that this is mostly power gaming myself but what do you think?

[toturi]

Powergaming? What do you want? Classes? Hey, then each PC will have a distinctive role and method.

[Butterblume]

Shadowrun was the first RPG I encountered without a distinctive class (or level) system. I always liked it that way.

[cetiah]

I'm of the opinion that characters (and thus players) should have primary and secondary roles, and it's perfectly fine for me to have any overlap in the secondary roles with each other or the secondary roles with primary roles. But each character's primary role should be a distinct and unique choice.

I like the overlap that Shadowrun has, but I don't like that overlap will ALWAYS be concentratd in certain key areas or that many of the roles are essentially the same with different fluff. The concept that everyone ends up with nearly the exact same abilities but has "different ways to get there" is just not enough differentiation in my opinion. The characters are still, essentially, interchangeable. And that, in my view, is a bad thing.

However, characters should never be so distinct that the party as a whole suffers without the inclusion of any single member. Hence, secondary roles should overlap to cover these areas in another character's absense.

[Crakkerjakk]

I like the fact that you can choose to generalize or specialize. I think that those who choose to generalize shouldn't be as good as those who specialize, because thats the way of the world. I think that if someone pours every single point of karma they get into their chosen specialty, they will be appreciably better in their chosen field than someone who splits the karma evenly amongst two fields. That being said, I think that people should not be penalized for generalizing. They want to be decent at every single thing? Fine, but they're gonna be mediocre in every field there is. Thats the cost of being a "jack of all trades." The next part of the saying is, "master of none." Your average runner should be able to run a basic data search on his own, or maybe even help out the hacker. But if you want your street sam to crack into Aztechnlogy's super secret blood sacrifice data vault, you better be in a 1000 karma point game.

[Thanee]

[Thanee]

[Garrowolf]

Every time I've encountered a power gamer the first thing they did was to create a character that could do as much as possible without the rest of the group. They tried to be really powerful in one area but still tried to negate as much of the rest of the group as they could. Then they sulked in the corner until they could dominate play. This is not one person but a string of them.

I have found it harder for them to do this if there was a good deal of difference between character types. I have also found that everyone acts more as a team when there is more differences. They have to work together to do something as complicated as a Shadowrun.

[toturi]

Your powergamers are min-maxers, but min-maxers are not powergamers per se. Powergamers want to be the center of attention as much as possible. It is fortunate then that SR4 chargen favors strength in an area or 2 as well as competence in a few others. Imagine if the powergamer wasn't even competent in an area, he would be trying to use his strength when it wasn't appropriate.

GM: You meet this guy...
Player 1: I talk to him.
Powergamer: Since I can't talk well but I can shoot well, I shoot him.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Kyoto Kid]

[Spike]

The way I see it:

A team of shadowrunners that only has one guy who can really drive, or really hack is just as bad off as a team that only has one guy who can really kill.

Having a decent second (or third) driver doesn't step on the Rigger's area. The rigger can go down just like anyone else can, and you'll need a backup. More importantly, you might need two or more vehicles. It's a 'Team Effort' game, not a 'bunch of Mini-games'.

Sure, the Hacker is going to be the guy you want running that hack on the triple-max datastore, but if he's busy with that, who's clearing out the less secure nodes of paydata? Who's keeping the camera's spoofed and the security hackers running around thinking the players are busy in the next lab over trying to steal the secret recipie for Tasty Wheat?

Having some overlap doesn't piss on the experts, it provides the team more options, as well as a little redundancy.

[lorechaser]

[Hagarzen]

Greetings,

From my personal back ground of being in the military (Navy if you wanted to know, if not skip this part), I want team mates that are specialized with secondary skill sets that over lap. Why would I hire 3 hackers of various skill levels and not get a shaman? Shadowrunners are professionals, we should have a group of experts to choose from. The team makeup should be determined by what the mission is. Now in game terms since not everyone has 2 or 3 characters to choose from, missions should be slightly tailored to the players group makeup.

Best
Hagarzen

[TheOOB]

I belive everyone in a running team should have a specilization, something they do better then anyone else, and in general these specilizations should rarely overlap. For example while in rare circumstances two dedicated hackers can be useful, normally they just end up compeating for the spot light.

However, it can be extreamly useful to have people who can back up the specilists. For example, in a runner team I ran with I was playing an assassin, I could get into anywhere, and take out just about anyone in close combat before they knew I was even there. Our teams street samurai also was pretty good in stealth though, and while he didn't always sneak up to the target with me, oftentimes he'd infiltrait a nearby area to give me cover or make a diversion should something go wrong, much like how I used my melee combat skills in battle to help his guns when the time came.

[Butterblume]

[Dread Polack]

I guess it's where the class system in RPGs came from. I think people should make the sorts of characters they want to play, and I also think that as many essential skills need to be fully covered by the party as possible. A balance needs to be struck. The difference is between viable characters and an effective team of shadowrunners. If you're lucky, the players can do both. Most of the time, I've found people are willing and flexible enough to build a character that also fits into an effective team.

Dread Polack

[Cheops]

The reason you need overlap is because your runner team isn't going to be together 24/7 (unless you are all bathroom buddies or something). There will be times when the face isn't there and you need to talk someone into doing something and there will be times when someone needs to be killed and the sam isn't available.

I always advise my new players to take some athletics, stealth, and social skills, and strongly recommend at least one form of combat skill. There's nothing worse than a SHADOWRUNNER who can't RUN or hide in the SHADOWS.

Having one thing that you do better than everyone else is how you get hired. Being able to do other stuff is how you survive.

[djinni]

[Thane36425]

A team should be like a tank crew. Each member has a specialist taks but the others are cross trained to be able to do the jobs of the other crewmen, just not as well. The Samurai should be the shooting specialist, but everyone else should be able to hold their own or better too. The Rigger is your driver, but at least one other character should be able to drive well too. Hackers are, well hackers, but at least one other character should have some computer skill and electronics to help get around security meaures.

Mages don't quite fit the mold, however, because you either are one or you aren't. Still, a mage could learn to shoot without costing them too much in a karma department.

Also, all characters need stealth and perception skills. Those are very important on a run. If you can't sneak past security or spot those cameras, your run is going to be over in a hurry.

[MaxHunter]

Overlapping is desirable, consider there's always that lucky bullet that takes out your specialist. You'll wish you had another mage/decker/rigger/whoever who could pick up the ball then and there.

Also, everyone has to be able to cover some minimum basic areas, lest they become a liability and compromise the team with their flaws. I mean: every pro runner should have basic social skills, minimum stealth, some idea of what to do during combat, etc.

cheers,

max

[MaxHunter]

Ups! Thane36425 beat me in the draw!

Kudos, mate

Max the dead cowboy

[mfb]

non-overlapping characters means, basically, using classes. classes aren't inherently bad, but i don't think they belong in SR, because SR has traditionally tended more towards realism (or at least the appearance of realism) than abastraction. i don't want to play a 5th-level street sam/2nd-level decker, i want to play a guy who's good with guns, cyberspurs, and a cyberdeck. that's not powergaming, that's a diverse character.

[Garrowolf]

I don't mind a bit of overlap and I think that everyone should have their specialization. I tend to have problems with characters who are trying to out do other characters in their focused field. Having a few people with some hacking to help support a hacker is one thing. Having a character that is an expert sammie and is trying to out do the hacker is another.

I think that a team should have at least a combat wombat, an intrusion specialist (hacker), and a magic user. You can add alot more combat wombats and give everyone some combat skills. People can have some low level hacking, B&E skills as well. That won't cause problems.

Let me turn the question around. What combinations have people had problems with. I know that there are people out there who have had no problems anywhere ever. I am asking about the times there were problems.

[cetiah]