 a image based language anyone?, and no, im not talking (about) chinese |
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 Feb 16 2007, 03:25 AM
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#1
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panda!  Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242  |
it seems that some israelis have a problem being understood or something, because they have developed this:
http://www.zlango.com/ hmm, maybe i should use this when players ask if there is any signs around? |
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Feb 16 2007, 05:59 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.
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Feb 16 2007, 06:58 AM
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#3
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
I felt the brain cells dying as they watched that.
Overall, I find the language trite and non-productive, returning thought to its most primitive forms. Hieroglyphics on the other hand as an image based language carried context... |
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Feb 16 2007, 07:10 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Dear god any one who uses that language is stupider then those morons who always type in net speak.
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 Feb 16 2007, 08:45 AM
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#5
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,040 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
:D Bye Thanee |
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Feb 16 2007, 01:20 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494 |
I can see that being a universal language of the matrix though. You could just have icons and anyone of any culture or language will be able to get the idea of the sign.
That being said it reminded me of Idiocracy. |
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Feb 16 2007, 01:47 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
Anyone ever read Neal Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age"? The protagonist, a young girl, is able to survive in the world because, although she can't read. all technology and services are controlled through an iconic language Interesting cyberpunk world.
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Feb 16 2007, 01:54 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Great. Just what we need. Another person focusing on penaltising people for being different from themselves. |
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Feb 16 2007, 03:28 PM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
If anyone ever wanted to know why I despise and ignore the fluff about illiteracy and iconic language, now you know. :)
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Feb 16 2007, 03:51 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
THAT'S IT! I always had my view of cyberpunk, and SR, as a world where language was fundamentally irrelevant, but I didn't know the source. Diamond Age is where I developed that idea. I think that the majority of the population in SR would be considered functionally illiterate today. |
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Feb 16 2007, 03:52 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I'm fully willing to accept being calling an elitist, when it's over something like "You should know how to read." |
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Feb 16 2007, 04:07 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Why? Because everybody knows if you can't read and comprehend the same way as everyone else you are stupid or lazy? Because that isn't being elistist, just ignorant. |
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Feb 16 2007, 05:34 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
My daughter has severe dyslexia. She is now in pre-AP classes in 7th grade. Her school told her that she could only read at a 3rd grade level last year. And then she tested at a 6.5 this year, when they gave her a harder test, and we worked with her. So it's not ignorance that leads me to say that. If you have severe mental retardation, and you physically can't read, that's a different situation. And those people are outside of any discussion, quite obviously. Iconic languages are also not developed for those people. That's not illiteracy. If you make that argument, it's like someone saying "Everyone should know how to tie their shoes" and someone else coming back with "What, even people that have no feet? That's ignorant." |
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Feb 16 2007, 05:44 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Actually, yes it is. Great, you and your daughter had the tools, and she had the inherent skills, there for her to make the leap. So WTF can't everyone do that, right? Because everyone is just like your daughter and in her position? And everyone grows up speaking the same language, right? |
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Feb 16 2007, 05:58 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Next up: Great, just what we need. Wheelchair ramps. --- EDIT: Because any non-lazy person would just get up and walk in. Or at least learn to drag themselves in.
Followed shortly by: Great, just what we need. Eye glasses. --- EDIT: Unless you are stupid you can just learn to be at the right distance too be able to see. |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:06 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
WOO! Hey, parapalegic. Your illness has just been put on the same footing as being unable to read. Slippery slope arguments don't fly with me. Because everything is a slippery slope. "Speed limits? What's next, requiring us only to drive on the roads they want? And then computers in our cars that only drive on government approved routes to locations we've previously filed in the Central Computer?" You can't overcome being in a wheelchair. You can't overcome needing glasses. And I don't put illiteracy on the same level as either of those. Sure, societal factors apply. Books are available for less than a quarter at any number of yardsales. Often, you can get a box of 20 or so for a buck. |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:07 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Thus your ignorance. EDIT:
Sure you can. I had already EDITed in examples of overcoming it. |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:09 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 14-January 07 From: Zurich Orbital Member No.: 10,642 |
Tell me he's talking about himself...
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Feb 16 2007, 06:14 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
What I really don't get is all this braille in elevators and crap. Lazy fuckers can't have people follow them around and do their reading for them? |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:18 PM
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#20
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
This is a great post. It's stated that there is a lot of illiteracy in 2070 and that icons form much of the means of communication. This is a good food for thought about how that might work. But aside from the previous comments about how this resets language back to earlier, more primative levels (which I agree with), another flaw of this is that in addition to the loss of detail and abilty to convey more complex thought constructs, it has two greater flaws. One is that I could see no use of tense and two is that it creates implicit connotations that the composer of the message may not intend. Example: the teacher icon shows a severe looking woman with a pencil in her hair. Suppose you actually mean 'teacher' as a good thing. What about the (blasphemous) depiction of god as a beefy grey-haired bouncer in shades, or that "You little fast, honey" in their example means honey in a sarcastic manner rather than the cheerful female jar that it shows? Bad, bad, bad. Given modern society and communications you would expect this language to evolve faster than pictograms->hieroglyphics->phonetics have in our own history, but presumably they'd just evolve in the same direction and become a phonetic alphabet again. |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:18 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
The tools? You mean her parents, and books? And a public school? Yes, she did. We didn't take her to a private tutor. We didn't pay someone to come in a fix her. We figured out what she needed to be able to read, we worked on reading with her, we taught her not to memorize words and assume that the word she thought she saw was the word on the page.
Ah, but that's an entirely different issue. |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:20 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Where the hell is all this coming from? Lorechaser made it explicitly clear that he was NOT talking about cases of mental retardation. He's NOT talking about physical impairment. He's not talking about some frickin pygmies in Borneo who have no concept of written language.
He's talking about the lazy sack of crap behind the McDonalds counter whose eyes work fine, whose brain works (should they choose to use it), and who has, at some point, $1 to get some books, and yet still chooses not to learn how to read. And you come storming in trumpeting your moral highground championing the disabled, which has nothing to do with this conversation! He's talking about illiteracy due to laziness. You're talking about handicap. Everybody calm the f*!# down! |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:24 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
See, here you're assuming things about me. You assume that I think people who can't read are lazy. Never did I state that. And in general, I don't think that. I do believe that there are people who cannot read because they are lazy. But I do not believe that most people can't read because of it. My daughter was not lazy. She has a developmental problem with her reading skills. It took her a *lot* more work to overcome it. My uncle has degenerative MS. He is now effectively quadrupalegic. He has compensated for it by having a complex machine which takes care of things for him. You'll also note that I made a particular distinction between someone that has mental issues which prevent them from reading, and people who are illiterate. But I'm pretty sure that you have made up your mind about what I feel, and I know that I've made up mine about you, and really, we're the only ones talking about this. So this is probably a good time to take this off forum. If you want to follow up, feel free to PM me. |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:26 PM
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#24
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
True. Also, all of the examples that I saw were showing you a phrase in English, and then showing you some pictures. And you're supposed to look at it and say, "Why, I know exactly what those symbols mean! It's all so simple! Why have I been wasting my time with letters!?" Well duh of course you know what it says, they just told you in English not 5 seconds ago. I'd like to see a phrase or two written out in that language without knowing what it says first, and just see how many creative meanings we could come up with for those pictures in that order. I'm betting there would be some pretty varied interpretation. (And I bet at least 25% of them would be sexual, regardless of the intended message) |
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Feb 16 2007, 06:34 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
And that is everyones' situation, right? Figuring out what they need to read couldn't possibily involve pictures to learn language before they might read?
No, actually it isn't. Oh sure Garrowolf is just thinking kids, but different people learn differentl. But hey, let's get back to Garrowolf shall we....
... and just how clueless he is, OK? And no, that isn't about mental retardation. It is quite literally having a different thinking model and structuring memory differently than typical. And no, kids that are diagnosed on the Autism spectrum aren't the only ones that this works for. |
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