 vulture funds, rl investment option that seems very sr |
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 Feb 17 2007, 01:35 AM
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#1
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Prime Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221  |
Ok i just heard about this yesterday but it seems made for SR.
For those who don't know I'm a licenced financial advisor in the real world.I try to help my clients find ways to make their money grow. I believe in investing in sin-booze, tobbacco and gambling makes money. Socially aware funds tend to be iffy. BUT This is really dispicable. With a normal bad debt it is pretty common for company B to pay company A a small amount for the debt of company C. Company A is happy, they got something back. Company B then tries to collect as much as it can for the debt owed by company C. A vulture fund does the same thing but does ity with international debt.It's a given that there are 3rd world nations with massive debt. There are calls in some quarters for the debt to be forgiven, effectively wiping the slate clean. With a vulture fund the idea is a company buys the debt from the financing nation before it can forgive the debt. It went to a court but was upheld by the court. Romania (I believe) was owed $40,000,000 by Tanzania. They were going to foprgive it and figure they were out 40 million. Then this group out of the Carrib paid the Romanians $4 millioin. The rumanians were happy to get something but now the 3rd world nation's debt isn't getting ofrgiven and they are in a deep hole. |
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Feb 17 2007, 01:52 AM
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#2
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
And? Just to be a heartless bastard about it, if they borrowed the money then they should be prepared to repay it back in full. Just because the person they owe it to has change doesn't affect this. If the Romanians had really wanted to be humanitarians about it then they should have forgiven the debt rather than sell it on, I guess greed won out over being nice about it.
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Feb 17 2007, 01:55 AM
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#3
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
wtf.
dumbest. 4milliondollar. investment. evar.... they'll never get thier four million dollars back. the whole point of the "you owe the romanians 40 million" is that they have an army to back it up... |
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Feb 17 2007, 01:56 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
<shrug> This is really just debt management writ large. The same thing happens to individuals.
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Feb 17 2007, 02:01 AM
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#5
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
but... it's stupid...
they paid 4 mill for 40 mill they'll never get... |
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Feb 17 2007, 02:02 AM
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#6
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
There is a difference between foreign aid and a loan. Aid is free(or something close to that), a loan means you pay. You write off bad debts, but it doesn't mean that the guy who borrowed willingly from you should be let off the hook. If the guy borrowing squanders that money away, then he should be held responsible. No need to feel sorry for anyone.
Hell, if I know that if I borrow money and hide it somewhere and my debt will be written off, I'd do it every so often. Why should a country's finances be different from an individual person's? Their leaders fucked up, should have bet on a better horse. Aid is different. You give the money away without expecting money in return. |
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Feb 17 2007, 02:03 AM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Africa of all continents knows that if a company doesn't have their own army, they can either hire mercenaries or bribe governments into lending them theirs. ~J |
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Feb 17 2007, 02:05 AM
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#8
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Exactly. And even a fraction of 40 mil can hire an awful lot of mercs. |
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Feb 17 2007, 02:08 AM
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#9
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Hardly. It's not like the Romanian government was going to load up a few ships with troops and sail them round to Dar es Salaam, yes I know they officially moved the capital back in the 70s, like a group of overarmed bailiffs. If you want the money back then you hire a bunch of lawyers instead. Does the Tanzanian government have any cash or holdings in another country like say the US? Then you sue them in US court and get yourself those holdings awarded to you. At least that's how I understand the system to generally work. |
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Feb 17 2007, 02:28 AM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
Oh brilliant. Now privatisation has moved into foreign debt. Praise be to humanity.
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Feb 17 2007, 04:11 AM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
If there's an opportunity to make money, they'll find a way. Operating under captalist ideals and very SR-ish, more power to them. ;-)
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Feb 17 2007, 04:47 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 15-January 07 Member No.: 10,652 |
"The justification for profit, it profit." 202nd Rule of Acquisition
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Feb 17 2007, 05:41 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Thanks for the tip, actually. A friend of mine explained to me how important investing is for one's future. I'm 24 years old now, but as soon as I get positive income I plan to start investing all the way so that I'm not screwed when I'm 60. With your advice, I can invest with more security if I invest in booze, which I like anyway. |
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Feb 17 2007, 09:04 AM
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#14
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
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Feb 17 2007, 04:38 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
(If that's supposed to be a counter to Toturi's stated position, you might want to double-check his location.)
~J |
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Feb 18 2007, 02:44 AM
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#16
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Pretty much. |
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Feb 18 2007, 04:00 AM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
That was my point. sure the odds of the investors getting 40 million is negligible but if they just get $8 million it's a 100% return on investment. The owners of the fund are keeping themselves secret, would you like to be known as the bastard who starved thousands of Africans who went without food because the government was paying you instead of buying grain? I agree on international debt. They borrowed money, they should expect to pay it back if they want to be taken serriously BUT if a government decided to forgive the debt to try and help the ocuntry along, that's their call, but this is governments selling the debt instead of just forgiving it. Here's another idea for a run, knowledge of such a deal going down would certianly be insider trading, worth a lot. |
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Feb 18 2007, 04:19 AM
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#18
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If the country decided to forgive the debt because they did not see themselves being able to recover their money, and then someone offered them a better deal, why not? If they decided to cut their loses and someone offered them partial compensation, I know what I'd take. Governments forgive debt because they do not see the point in throwing good money after bad trying to recover the bad debt. |
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Feb 18 2007, 04:42 AM
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#19
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
So what exactly is the bond market then? |
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Feb 18 2007, 05:07 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 533 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In a hot tub, with lots of bubbles and champagne waiting for you. Member No.: 1,972 |
maybe it's the alcohol but i dunno one word ya'll talking bout
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Feb 18 2007, 07:06 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
"GREG PALAST: Here's how the vultures got Zambia. In 1979, Romania lent them $15 million. By 1998, Zambia was broke, so Romania offered to write off the entire debt for just $3 million. But before the deal was final, a vulture swooped in, and somehow snatched Romania’s cheap offer for his own company. Michael Sheehan and his associates are now suing Zambia, not for the $3 million they paid, but for the original debt, plus interest: $42 million. But even bigger money is to be made in the US courtrooms, where Sheehan and others are asking for hundreds of millions of dollars from several desperately poor nations." www.matheba.net |
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Feb 18 2007, 07:10 AM
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#22
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Good old Greg Palast. When you absolutely need to read something that will anger up the blood, there are few better ways than to read anything he writes.
But hey, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. After all, so long as capitalism favors, you know, capitalists, it's a hell of an incentive to become one. Buying up federally-secured student loans would be a great place to start. |
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Feb 18 2007, 07:14 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Please do not take off-hand comments read on dumpshock forums as investment advice. Consider sitting down with a professional financial advisor (like maybe Snow Fox...) whose background you have looked into, and hire that person to create a sound investment strategy and financial lifestyle analysis with you, rather than simply trying to get hot stock tips from such people. Whether you use a professional financial advisor or not, the most important investment you can make is your time and effort to educate yourself on various business and financial options and strategies available. |
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Feb 18 2007, 07:24 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Yeah, the actual article is pretty difficult to read without wanting to vomit. It has such obvious biases and fallcies throughout. But the parts I quoted were mostly factual and relavent to this discussion. There's also this, from Wikipedia: Vulture Funds |
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Feb 18 2007, 10:22 PM
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#25
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Although why would you bother wasting them on bloody Tanzania, the place is a complete dirt hole with little in the way to recommend itself. Now if you wanted to knock over a country then you need to look for somewhere that's small, low population, fairly backwards and with valuable natural resources. The perfect example of this would have to be somewhere like Equatorial Guinea. Small - just 28,051 km˛ with a population of 504,000, backwards - military dictatorship with most of the population on less than a dollar a day and large proven oil reserves. Has an army of only 1,400 and paramilitary police of 400, no navy to speak of and bugger all air force so get yourself properly prepared and they shouldn't be much of a problem since their training is for crap and they've no vehicles. Figure a team of a couple hundred mercenaries should be able to do the job nicely. Maybe have a word with whatever Executive Outcomes became and see whether you can hire something exceedingly vicious like a Mi-24 Hind as backup. Should probably also hire another hundred or so expatriate Guineans as mercenaries and train them up to competency so they can act as the public face of the 'democratic revolution'. They'll cost peanuts compared to the westerners and can garrison/hold ground that the professionals have taken. Then you've got to think about what you're going to do after you've shot up most of the military, seized key sites like telephone exchanges and radio/television broadcasters, killed off the President for Life and his family, rounded up most of the senior government and military figures and taken over the place. You've got your expat locals standing about out in public smiling and looking nicely ethnic, so you've then got to start bribing people. Most of the country's on less than a dollar a day, so with a population of 504,000 and an average family size of 5 give each household 100 dollars in cash. Costs you about 10,080,000 dollars so it's a hefty up front cost but I would think it'll get the locals firmly on side. Offer the mid-ranking officers and beauracrats that you've promoted to fill the posts of the senior people you just purged say five or ten thousand dollars as well. Back it up with a broadcast program talking about how the new government is going to share the oil wealth unlike the last lot as well. Alternatively just bribe the senior people and count on the large quantities of forearms and explosives you're holding to carry the tide of public opinion. Whilst that's going on you need to wheel out the native Guinean that you've previously arranged to install as President. You did do that right? Have El Presidente go on camera to prattle on for a bit about how bad the old government was blah blah blah, corruption and theft etc etc, introduction of democracy as soon as possible and legitimate use of the oil revenues yada yada yada. Get him on the phone to the major diplomatic players like the permanent Security Council members and any countries with large local investments to reassure them the oil will keep flowing and that you'll respect their holdings. Should probably also talk to the UN and say whatever they want to hear as well. Then quietly declare a state of emergency and martial law 'until peace has been restored' and a year/two year transitional government slash government of national unity to get the country back on its feet. Then get him to sign the official contracts that give you a small concession in the oil fields and wrap the whole thing up and retire quietly. Edit: And even though this was straight off the top off my head, if seems I've been giving this a lot of subconscious thought apparently. And I haven't even read The Dogs of War in ages either. :) |
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