 Pirates of the Carribean, Return of the Tall Ships |
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 Mar 1 2007, 05:55 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304  |
I believe that there was two main reasons for using wooden hulled vessels:
1. The resources are available in the carribean. 2. Harder to detect with a few sensor systems |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:04 PM
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#77
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
A metal ship is a lot more costly and difficult to build.
A wooden ship can possibly be made by the mage with help from spirits. The fact that it is A) wood, and B) handmade makes it a lot more open to the various enchanting methods compared to an industrial built ship. The style factor. Free Spirits in the Carib might take more kindly to helping a tall ship as opposed to a more modern ship. Sensors have more trouble detecting a sail powered wooden ship. Unless you are talking about using a metal hull but still being sail powered. It is much easier and cheaper to maintain and supply a wooden sail ship. Can make moderate repairs by yourself in an isolated cove (unless you are talking about careening the ship or other structural work that requires a dry dock). Metal ship has a hard time doing that. Don't need fuel, just ropes, wood, and cloth. Wooden ship gets hardened armor once it is possessed anyway so it is still pretty resilient. I could keep going if you want? |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:06 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
didnt they use Oak and similar woods for these ships? Are u sure these woods grow in numbers in the carib?
Also, a simple plastic hull like they use on todays yachts is as hard to detect, i believe, and it is cheaper... Think about it, in the SR world synthetic substitutes are cheaper than the 'real' stuff even when it comes to food. So wood is probably going to be pretty expensive. The only real advantage about a old wooden warship is that it is very hard to sink, but then, it is pretty easily burned or blown up..... |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:09 PM
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#79
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Style, man. Style and class. (plus you build whatever the Free Spirit wants you to). |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:21 PM
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#80
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Some of the woods did, from what I read, one European country, Spain, established a plantation to grow those wood needed for their shipbuilding enterprise since most of the readily accessed ones were depleted. Many of the European countries ran into similar problems because of the amount of mature wood (like oak) needed per ship. |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:23 PM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
another thing learned......
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Mar 1 2007, 06:25 PM
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#82
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Not especially and less so than a plastic ship. Remember, plastic (and metal) cannot be grown. It isn't plentiful in the carribean or Spanish Main. It is exceptionally difficult to enchant. It isn't any faster, and it is much more vulnerable to sensors. And it still does not burn much easier nor blow up much easier. The wood is generally too thick and treated with other stuff to help prevent burning except through prolonged exposure (which really isn't common in modern military engagements). Because the wood has different properties than metal or plastic, missiles and rockets are not optimized to work against it and may not be as effective as they otherwise would be. On the other hand, it's not too hard to patch up a wooden ship during a battle, when compared to doing the same with a metal ship under the same circumstances. There are plenty of examples of the former going on during the heat of combat, none I know of of the latter. |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:30 PM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Umm, you're right that ASMs aren't optimized against wooden targets... but I've got a strange feeling a 221kg penetrating HE charge is going to blow a huge fucking hole into any wooden ship you care to name. If it can rip open the side of a heavily armored steel warship, a few points worth of Hardened Armor or inches of oak are in real trouble. |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:33 PM
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#84
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes they did. The famous tall ships were made out of old-growth temperate forests and can't be made any more because the trees used don't exist anywhere. Replica ships use a completely different technique where smaller pieces of wood are grafted together.
The Carribean is a net timber importer across the board, and it doesn't have a major timber industry (on account of being mainly composed of little islands that are frequently hit by storms). However, there are some available woods, especially on the larger islands. There was a time when Cuba hosted one of the largest shipyards producing wooden vessels on the planet. Even today, Cuba still has a decent timber industry. Though they are obviously much more known for their production of sugar and steel. Which is of course the core of the matter:
-Frank |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:33 PM
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#85
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Get one of those metal storm emplacement guns that they showed off and use it to shoot down incoming ASMs :D |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:38 PM
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#86
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
With effective (which is to say large, expensive, and high-tech) missile defense systems you're getting rid of the economical aspect, the self-built aspect, the low-tech/easy enchanting aspect, and the stealth aspect. If you're only going for style, I guess that works. |
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Mar 1 2007, 06:56 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
I dont see, why plastic hulls are more vulnerable to sensors, neither why wooden ships or boats for that matter would be faster compared to those made of plastics. I mean look at those fast sailing boats they run races with, they are almost exclusivly made of synthetic carbon hulls afaik, i have never heard of a wooden boat in such a race. plus these carbon hulls are also very quickly repaired, at least minor breaks are. i would also doubt that prolonged fire exposure is uncommon in todays naval warfare. the intial goal might be to sink the ship but the explosion creates a lot of heat that causes secondary fires with your equipment. so i wouldnt rule out fire to be a problem. also even if your possessed wooden warship can withstand the destructive power of antiship munitions, its crew cannot and the blast will enter through all the openings and probably kill them. |
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Mar 1 2007, 07:31 PM
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#88
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
The plastic boats aren't slower, but they aren't hugely faster. The only advantage carbon or plastic has is its lighter (less mass means higher acceleration). In regards to the question of military-grade anti-ship munitions, no, I don't think that the wooden ship is going to somehow be immune to it or anything. However, any concerns you might comparing any other ship in your price range to the wooden ship when you put it up against any sort of ammunition you're likely to encounter, you aren't really losing a lot. So in other words, you're just about breaking even in that area, compared to your other options. |
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Mar 1 2007, 07:37 PM
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#89
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Plastic Ship and Chrome Men!....
Nope, I think Wooden Ships and Iron Men just sounds better. |
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Mar 1 2007, 07:49 PM
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#90
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What is the "price range" of this proposed wooden ship, BTW? You can probably get an obsolete 1,500-ton corvette or patrol craft for a $one or two million.
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Mar 1 2007, 08:02 PM
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#91
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Hmmm... what was the original reason they went from wooden ships to ironclads? :P |
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Mar 1 2007, 08:08 PM
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#92
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Picates eat pirates.
Then you'll have Sky Pirates to worry about. All they need is a big zeppelin with a few guns and a giant net launcher (or a giant harpoon gun for Ahab-style action) mounted on it, a sufficiently powerful Air spirit to provide Movement and other magical support, and maybe a couple of fighters to help herd the targets. Just net the cargo plane and drag it back to base. |
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Mar 1 2007, 08:13 PM
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#93
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
That's what we need, something out of Disney's Tailspin.
We'll have a Carribean where werebear aircaptains fly their cargo plane on courier missions throughout the islands barely keeping their business running, all the while being chased by werewolf sky pirates based out of their zeppelin. |
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Mar 1 2007, 08:14 PM
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#94
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Makes sure it's a tight net, or all the precious loot will be spread all over as the plane is crushed. Actually, make that a really tight net, because you don't want any oxygen getting in there with the running turbines and the jet fuel released from the recently decimated airframe. |
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Mar 1 2007, 08:21 PM
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#95
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It'll be a magic net. Or a giant whaling harpoon.
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Mar 1 2007, 08:28 PM
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#96
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A suction cup harpoon, maybe?
Finally bothered to look at the accompanying "after" picture of the Harpoon impact I linked above. Heh. |
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Mar 1 2007, 08:36 PM
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#97
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
It depends. Are you a rich individual or company, paying trained, first-world craftsmen, using only non-environmentally protected forests and paying appropriate taxes, dues, insurance and clean-up costs for its production? Or are you the medicine man of a small village with power tools in the middle of a third-world jungle, well beyond the reach of most government and corporate laws? |
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Mar 1 2007, 08:45 PM
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#98
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If it was the first, you could just as well get a modern stealthy guided missile corvette. Although if you haven't got trained craftsmen, is the free spirit designing the ship and providing constant guidance and oversight on every step of building it?
Either way there's an opportunity cost which would give us some sort of theoretical price range. For example, how much money could the medicine man of a small village make by engaging in truck trafficking, kidnapping and various minor crime for the time and with all the resources it takes to build this ship (including one or more powerful spirits, a large work force, and the other factors of production)? |
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Mar 1 2007, 09:12 PM
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#99
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
... and your name is Noah?
Firstly, I wasn't aware truck trafficking was in any way illegal. Secondly, it depends on a number of factors, for instance location. I was imagining the village in Guyana perhaps, too far from any real city to get any traffic of note, but still close enough to Amazonia that if they make a lot of fuss, they're liable to get smoked. On the other hand, the Carribean is still chaotic, full of fat targets, and in a different country so he doesn't have to worry about pooping where he eats. |
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Mar 1 2007, 09:25 PM
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#100
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Hey, not my fault I wasn't exposed to any real difference between voiced and unvoiced stops until I was 15!
The Dutchman has to roam the seven seas until it has collected 2 of every unclean and 7 of every clean luxury item? |
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