 Sample Character w/ Cyberlimb?, Did I miss one? |
  |
 Feb 26 2007, 04:53 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps  Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667  |
I don't see any sample characters with cyberlimbs in the core book.
What is this telling me about cyberlimbs and their place in SR4? |
 |
 
|
|
Feb 26 2007, 06:57 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
That they match the flavor text stating that they are considered crude and outdated? In SR4, cyberlimbs are the kind of thing you are likelier to see on gangers and other desperate unfortunates, rather than shadowrunners. In SR3, by contrast, two of the main book's archetypes had cyberlimbs.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 26 2007, 08:44 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
That the rules for cyberlimgs are so screwed up that even the writers didn't use them?
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 26 2007, 02:09 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
I made a cyberlimbed pregened character for the con I'm working at in a month; I saw this picture on brouhaha's DeviantArt account, saw the cyberlimb, saw the Cross Applied Technologies patch on his clothing and immediately thought "Ex-Corp Company Man" who is now on the run from Ares and lost his arm somewhere along the way.
Because that's what I'm saving cyberlimbs for personally--not for augmentation, but for those times with a character's limb has an unfortunate encounter with a hydraulic press or perhaps a woodchipper. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 26 2007, 03:06 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Bingo! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 26 2007, 04:06 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,532 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 769 |
I think a single cyberlimb can add character not to mention some interesting gee-gaws to a PC. Totally cybering out a character has never been a praticularly effective build though. A buddy did it once in 2nd ed after about 2 months of playing we realized we hadn't read the rules right and technically speaking he should have been dead sitting somewhere at -2 essance. Then we decided he was more fun alive so we kept the character, just didn't let him pump any more cyber into his system.
One of my favorite characters of all time ended up getting a cyberarm as a result of an in game horribly botched resistance roll. The DM and I decided that it would be cheeper and easier for the character to get a cyberlimb rather than undergo the reconstructive surgury. By 2070 I'm not sure you would see too many people diliberatly lopping bits of their bodies off to replace them with chrome. The funky feeling essance loss alone gives you would be something most people would want to minimize, also your meat arms stay SOTA. IMO a character with cyberlimbs isn't trying to say "Look how shiny and new I am, I must be a badass." he's saying "A troll ripped my arm off and started beating me with it, the troll still lost, do you really want to start shit with me?" |
|
|
|
|
Feb 26 2007, 05:20 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the basic problem of cyberlimbs in SR is that they are not cost effective unless you need to always have some toolkit or similar handy...
but this is showing up more and more in other games to. thing is that sooner or later bioware will overtake cyber. making cyber for the most part last years tech... |
|
|
|
|
Feb 26 2007, 08:05 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Unless someone comes up with the next generation of mechanical limbs (aka a SOTA type book, with revised rules - if it's called SOTA, it's easy enough to rewrite the whole section!) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 27 2007, 02:27 AM
Post
#9
|
|||||
|
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,067 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
I am amazed at how often posts appear claiming how broken or useless some aspect of the game is. My impression is that usually when someone says (PC type X) is useless, it is because he hasn't taken the time to figure out how to make (PC type X) work. [ Ouch! Ooof! OK, enough bricks and snowballs, guys!] For possible use in SRM, I have generated a character with the standard construction rules who is a fugitive from Ares/Cross in Quebec. Her street name is Sept de Neuf. [Yeah, I know... ] She was an experiment deemed complete, and escaped before the corp suits 'recycled' her. She has five cyberlimbs (including torso), which in game terms allowed me to create a character who has no Physical or Mental Attribute less than 5, fights like hell and has a total of 170 BP in skills. Those skill points can be distributed in any way you want to make a character that has many functions in a run. A slight adjustment in implants can also tweak her abilities. I have a good background story to make her fun to play, and I can't imagine any run other than one entirely in astral/metaplanar space that would not find her incredibly useful. No matter how 'state of the art' the others think they are. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 27 2007, 02:42 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,532 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 769 |
bah she's not a true cyber character unless she has a pop out articulating arm with a heavy machine gun mount :P Heavally cybered characters can be a very effective build if they are done right, they are difficult to put together properly though.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2007, 03:46 AM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
You can do pretty well with a fully cybered character. But you can't make a useful character with only a cyberlimb, for instance. Occasionally, you're better off getting a limb and stat boosts for a specific purpose, but no sammie will ever get a single cyber arm, what with the 6 cap. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 27 2007, 05:43 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I'm really hoping that the cyber book has some sort of "simplified" optional limb rule along the lines of the houserule that I use... the limb has stats equal to yours, you can boost strength if you pay for it, and if some other physical stat changes you've gotta spend an hour in a shop getting it tuned or take a penalty with that limb. I predict a huge number of players flocking to the "optional" rule.
The current cyberlimb rules border on the ludicrous. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 27 2007, 11:39 AM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I'll bet she is human rather than ork, troll or even dwarf. Also, by cybering the whole body, you can get around the question which attribute to use for a test (the limbs attribute, the average of natural and cybered, the minimum...). I tried making a char with a cyberhand, but couldn't figure it out (shooting, climbing, melee combat, etc.) My statement is: you can't use cyberlimbs without houserules. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 27 2007, 01:57 PM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,067 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Yes, she is human. Think Seven of Nine from Star Trek, only more metallic. But still with that red hair... that gorgeou..... uh.... ahem. She tends to wear clothing that covers the metal. I asked the Shadowrun helpline about the averaging thing, in particular about armor, and the official response is that the all-around value is the average of the 5 parts: torso, arms, legs. The head is not counted in the averaging. So in Sept de Neuf's case, I have all five 'limbs' with equal mods for BOD, AGI and STR, making the averaging easy. This fills the torso. Two gyromounts in the arms take up the remaining space there but for [1] each, and there is [10] left in each leg, which could be used for armor (didn't have the nuyen to do it).... 5 points in each leg to give a total of 10, which would average over the 5 limbs to give an extra 2 points of armor for her. This would be internal, and NOT count for the encumbrance rule. I suppose I COULD give up something else to get the nuyen for that armor, but I envisioned her as a McGuyver kind of agent for the corp... drop her in and let her figure it out on the fly... so I wanted a variety of abilities in one character. It seems to me that the nuyen-cheap cyberlimbs make that possible, and so there is still use for this kind of implantation. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 27 2007, 03:02 PM
Post
#15
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I assume that this is the response you're referring to, found posted in another thread:
So Rob basically said that if you want to you, you could probably convince him to add the average armor rating of all limbs, but the intent was that it only applied to called shots. Was there more to it than that? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 27 2007, 05:55 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,067 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Well, I don't know how else to interpret, "so I would allow it" except as an affirmation of the proposition. The rest of his response carries on from that position to discuss internality vs. externality. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:03 AM
Post
#17
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I'm going to assume that to make this build work you took 1's Body Strength and Agility, and just bought the limbs with the appropriate upgrades. All 5's you said so that's 40 points each for Charisma, Willpower, Logic, Intuition and Reaction = 200 points so I imagine that's the deal. 170bp were spent on skills. Full conversion Cyborg costs 80k :nuyen: before attribute and armor upgrades, and you still need initiative enhancers or you're a one pass wonder™, guess you're springing for synaptic boosters. That’s 16bp for the :nuyen: on the new chrome, another 32 if you want synaptic 2. So you’ll be dipping pretty heavy into the negative qualities, let me guess, she’s a toothpick-allergic amnesiac badgerphieliac, (props to ElFenrir). I can't sit here and think that this is a validation for the rules because they allow for this. Instead I'd say that this is an aberration and as a GM probably disallow it as abuse.
I personally find this line insulting as someone who actively tries to find the balance and intent the rules when you come around and so thoroughly abuse it and defy its intent and claim that it is therefore working as intended. Now lets look at some of the problems for the character and holes in the rules that would or should come up playing such a monstrosity. What happens when you do happen to take damage? You better have a good doc wagon contract or a 10 point 5/5 street doc contact because you've got two dice to heal physical damage, and if you're not in a hospital that's less one so you're at a single die. You didn't think that body 5 leg was going to heal itself? That hemorrhaging liver has a body 1. What other great news does that body of 1 get you? How about 1 die for resisting toxins and pathogens? As a GM if you insisted on playing this character the first time you took physical damage I'd start rolling for all t he months of full hospital care you're requiring and as soon as that inevitable glitch comes along I’ll just call you infected with some common hospital infection that by 2070 is so thoroughly antibiotic resistant that with your meager immune system . . . Well, I’d just start writing up a new character before we get into all those dice rolls. Now what page did they put the rules on for how to deal with all the damage that occurs to your chrome limbs? Oh yeah, I forgot they're not gonna be here until arsenal. As a result in the meantime your GM is going to have to come up with an entire system to deal with this awkwardness. Perhaps you can see as a GM why I'd not be very willing to allow you to play a beast such as this, I don't want to have to write Arsenal before it's released. I’m not sure where it was, but I’ve read from the developers that full conversion cyborgs were never intended for play. I reserve the right to make a NPC out of one, cause gee, that’s why I go through the hell of being the GM. For a player I see it as a cheap excuse to eek out a few extra attributes in a system that is balanced heavily towards the importance of attributes. That’s not taking the time to figure out how to make it work, that’s taking time to figure out how to work it. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:52 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756 |
/agree, although slightly less vehemently.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:03 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
And yet that's the only real way to make a valid and viable cyberlimb character. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:09 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I'd argue it's viability...
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:13 PM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
Hey! I made a troll with a cyber-skull. Cos, well, it's a troll, he's not going to blend in anyhow. Is that "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY" plate on his forehead a real claymore mine? He'll never tell. =) -karma |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:33 PM
Post
#22
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
I'd pay money to find out it was actually a live claymore and he blew it... |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 28 2007, 06:48 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
Fun, fun, fun...
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 2 2007, 02:33 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
I think it shows the move of Shadowrun from cyberpunk/fantasy to transhuman/fantasy and the emphasis on magic more than technology which they have been going towards since SR1. Yeah the cyberlimb rules are "broken" but a fully cybered character can easily be viable utilizing house rules. Of course I also advocate house ruling Magic attribute limits but that's just me. I'm more cyber than fantasy.
Oh yeah, Demerzel, if I played a cybered character in your game and you subjected me to those rules then I would think that you were a magic-biased GM. I could make a fully cybered sammie who could do the same thing as a gunslinger adept but you would probably think the adept a good build but not the sammie. To each their own I guess. I think the creators limited full conversion borgs so that they wouldn't be seen as just a Cyberpunk 2020 clone (all though in the beginning the only real difference was magic) but I think that full conversion borgs should be a viable build. It is CYBERpunk fantasy roleplaying. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 2 2007, 04:17 AM
Post
#25
|
|||||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
As a GM you can disallow anything you choose to disallow. Intent or not, the letter of the rules is the unmutable(until errata-ed) line in the sand. To say that you can divine the intent of the writers unless they have come out and specifically stated so, is imposing your POV where anybody else's POV is equally valid. pbangarth's PC does have weaknesses as you have stated. But anyone's view of the intent of the rules is subjective unless it is the writers themselves since then, the letter of the rules is the expression of their intent. Perhaps you find it insulting because someone has spoken the uncomfortable truth: the emperor is naked. By your own admission, you look for balance and intent of the rules, you are blinkered by those perceptions. Anything that does not fall within that view must be abuse and not as intended. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th January 2025 - 02:32 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.