[X] My Assistant

[nezumi]

[sunnyside]

While I think there is some room for pistols to get a little bigger in SR3 and SR2 (but not SR4) I think you guys are still selling the current heavies (and especially the warhawk) short. I think it's because SR shies away from body/strength/recoil requirements for weapons until you get into things meant for vehicles.

So, just as a gnome in gradeschool can fire a ten gauge on full auto with one hand using a pistol grip without a penalty, your characters can fire warhawks without any problem. Doesn't mean the warhawk is fireing little .45s.

Also it seems some of you have decided that barrels in longarms are there for
Sh*ts and giggles. I'd need to dig in the back of my closet but I'm 99% sure that there were rules in SR3 for sawed off shotguns and they dropped the damage code from 10S to 9M. Does that damage code look familiar?

So a preditor is shooting something roughly equivalent to a high powered shotgun (shotguns run from 8S to 10S so I figure 10S is something like a 10 gauge).

The warhawk is more powerful so it's probably fireing something roughly equivalent to a sawed off 8 guage or maybe even a 6.

If you want pistols heavier than that OK, just be aware you're really getting up there.

If you want more realism put some requirements on fireing the heavy pistols.

[nezumi]

That's an interesting direction I hadn't considered, putting restrictions on firing heavier guns. That is, at its core, the basic problem. There's nothing stopping a Strength 1 character from using an LMG (except he has to be able to carry it in the first place, but because the encumbrance rules are so messed up, I've never seen that come up).

I do agree that the current firearms rules are nerfed, and its something that's getting changed in SR3R. Shadowrun has long neglected the fact that barrel length is critical to the power of the bullet. And so when I put forward the idea of VHPs, I did so with the full realization that this idea was being built upon previous flawed reasoning that was outside of my control.

[Darkest Angel]

[Pendaric]

I consider VHP's to be a house rule call. If there is a strong call for one in your game indulge your player if you wish. The current rules fall short of perfect realism in favour of good/ease of game play. There is no hard and fast logic to the firearm rules, sawn off shotguns and the enricho hatamoto heavy pistol for example.
The VHP should remain an optional personal choice for each ref.

[Wounded Ronin]

[HullBreach]

[X-Kalibur]

Well, mostly because I enjoy pistols I say yes :)

But that aside given the 'ware available I don't see them as being unrealistic at all. I do see them being only SS unless you meet a strength requirement or a RC requirement (both are likely to be obtained thru 'ware).

On the topic of HullBreach's guns, I'm actually going to see if I can't talk my GM into letting me use the "Gong" given that the character has an obvious lower cyberarm with a cyberarm gyromount and the str and agi on the arm are 6. (both the meat and the metal stats, I figured it would eliminate math if I made them the same). I'm sure I'll QUICKLY be receiving the soon to be added Distinctive style flaw. Right along side anyone who makes a troll with a bow. :rotfl:

SR4 slightly covers the VHP category with the Ruger Superwarhawk (6P -2 AP) and SR3 with Cannon Companion had the Eichiro Hatamoto (can't remember stats, 12M maybe?).

I'd really like the Thunderbolt and the Savalette Guardian back myself though, although I doubt they would be hard to recreate (Guardian is just a 6P -1AP with burst fire as a complex action, integral RC of 1, and built in Smartlink)

[Glyph]

I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs. Something like a Defiance T-250 is the equivalent of a large-bore pistol for a troll, while an Uzi III is the equivalent of a machine pistol. And by the time you modify either weapon with an oversized troll grip, they probably start looking like big pistols.

I agree that trolls should get a bonus for weapon concealability due to their huge size - +2 or +3 maybe?

[HullBreach]

Just had the mental image of a hold-out pistol with troll grips on it. <LMAO>

[Moon-Hawk]

[nezumi]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Sawed off assault rifles are not a good idea. When you get to really short barrels there's no advantage there over calibers like 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm.

A shotgun sawed off to be a "Troll Heavy Pistol" wouldn't have a barrel as short as a human standard Heavy Pistol, it'd be 65% longer -- in SR3 at least, slightly less so in SR4. Makes perfect sense to me to allow an 8S shotgun/HP with Heavy Pistol ranges and concealability, according to both in-game and real life logic. With the skill you could go either way.

Similarly SMGs could work as "Troll Machine Pistols" (although there the differentiation in damage is much harder to justify with real life logic, but we aren't really going there), and slightly shortened (Barrel Reduction) SA/BF shotguns or sport rifles as "Troll SMGs". LMGs could work as "Troll ARs" by simply modifying them to be troll-wieldable (though again if you're trying to make sense of the damage ratings...).

[Edit]Ruleswise the gun modification option "Barrel Reduction" has the following effects: -10% range, -0.25kg weight, +2 concealability, plus increased cost and lowered FCUs. (CC, p. 74). However, you could make the case that making a shotgun into a "Troll Heavy Pistol" goes a bit beyond what that's supposed to simulate.[/Edit]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Though the cases are longer, common assault rifle calibers wouldn't otherwise help the troll there. If you're just interested in filling up a mag, get a magazine loader. 5.56x45mm cartridges weigh about the same as 9x19mm ones, 7.62x39mm slightly less than .45 ACP ones. 7.62x51mm cartridges, though already out of the assault rifle range, at least weigh almost as much as .44 Magnum ones, but still in each case you're looking at far smaller and far lighter bullets, and much smaller diameters for everything but the rear part of the case, if that. For those big, clumsy troll fingers you'll want a shotgun.

Scaling a .45 ACP up to troll size (ie. 1.65x in every direction), you'd get 19x38mm -- basically an 11 gauge, 1½" chamber shotgun. Funny how that works out.

[Edit]Here's a 9x19mm FMJ cartridge next to a 5.56x45mm M855 FMJ. A 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm will look relatively smaller next to a .45 ACP and .44 Magnum, respectively.[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 1 2007, 11:02 PM

[hyzmarca]

When I think of heavy pistols for trolls, I always come back to the Thunder .50 BMG and the Jesus Pistol.

Certainly, a troll would be more comfortable handling the large .50BMG cartridge than he would be handling other cartridges. I imagine that someone will actually decide that there is some profit in building these.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The funny thing about the Birdman M82B1-P is that the bullet would actually be sticking out of the barrel and into the muzzle brake, with the most likely effect of catastrophic failure on the first shot. Except of course you can't fire it, because there's not enough space for the bolt and slider to move back far enough to chamber a round.

Make it 6" longer in both directions, though, and we're in business.

[Darkest Angel]

Going back many many years to when I was in the Army Cadets and used the SA80 on a pretty regular basis, I recall that even at 14 I could handle it one handed pretty easily thanks to it's bullpup configuration. Also, the rules in CC state that wielding a two handed firearm (not heavy weapons btw) with one hand is no problem for a Troll. So, with that in mind - why do you need an even heavier pistol when you can pack a regular Ares Alpha as if it was an Ares Predator anyway? The only reason is concealability, which can be taken care of with barrel reduction.

[Mistwalker]

[HullBreach]

[nezumi]

[HullBreach]

Hmm there are a few examples of what your describing already out there:

Sig 556 Pistol debuted at this years SHOT show:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430...408&f=430601935

Almost half of bushmasters Carbon-15 Line of weapons:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/

Krinkov's are pretty common in some parts of the middle east:
http://www.ak47review.com/gear/Gear_Review...=gear1141107764

Im sure theres some others out there Im forgetting, but these aren't all that uncommon. There are some issues with them though, mainly obscenely huge muzzle flashes, combined with being EXTREMELY loud. Also, your not getting anywhere near the velocity you'd get out of a rifle because of the shorted barrel.

[Darkest Angel]

Which are machine pistols or SMGs, which are already catered for. It's just an example of twinks wanting to get twinkier and looking for an excuse. There are ways and means of acheiving the ends wanted, using the rules provided. That's what I voted for, and therefore see no reason to add more devastating weaponry than is already out there. As I've already said, the only conceivable benefit is concealability, if you want to treat trolls as always wearing a long coat when clothed, that's fine.

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

Maybe during the course of gameplay you'll come across a one handed troll sized sports/sniper/assault rifle, but it'll just be a custom made sports/sniper/assault rifle and will follow all the established rules for sports/sniper/assault rifles.

[Lindt]

There we go Hullbreach. A 5.56 pistol. And its SO scary.... I want one.