Is the VHP necessary? - Dumpshock Forums

Is the VHP necessary?, Big trolls, big cyber, big pistols?

Should Very Heavy Pistols be added?
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Mistwalker

Mar 2 2007, 02:51 PM

Post #51

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

Unless, of course, the armorer is a troll :D

Darkest Angel

Mar 2 2007, 02:57 PM

Post #52

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QUOTE (Mistwalker)

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 2 2007, 09:39 AM)

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

Unless, of course, the armorer is a troll :D

Like I said, maybe you'd come across it during the game, but they're not exactly going to be mass produced.

I can see it now, engineer walks into Ares boardroom:

Engineer: "Hey guys, I got it! We can make bigger guns with bigger bullets for Trolls!"
Damien: "You want to give big scary stupid trolls - who have no money - bigger guns?"
Engineer *takes out mobile* "IT?... Yeah, I need some thoughts erasing?.... 5 minutes, I'll be right down."

HullBreach View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 03:10 PM Post #53
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Holiday Florida Member No.: 9,055	Reminds me of the Militech posters from CyberPunk 2020 which usually featured a good looking model holding a weapon: "Big Guns for Big People"

nezumi

Mar 2 2007, 03:10 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Which are machine pistols or SMGs, which are already catered for.

Except that the current selection of SMGs and machine pistols do not include sawed off assault rifles.

QUOTE

It's just an example of twinks wanting to get twinkier and looking for an excuse.

Wow, it has been a very long time since I've been called a twink. Don't make generalizations, they don't suit you :P

QUOTE

There are ways and means of acheiving the ends wanted, using the rules provided.

So your argument is, you can make/modify new weapons from existing ones, but use the existing rules?

QUOTE

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

You mean people with cyberlimbs? That is what originally sparked my interest, and that is what the CP2020 super heavy pistols are based upon.

HullBreach View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 03:17 PM Post #55
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Holiday Florida Member No.: 9,055	Honestly I don't even think a cyberlimb is entirely necessary. For long arms (assuming were going to evolve this into very heavy versions of most classes of firearm) you could probobly get away with some simple strength enhancements. For handguns/machinepistols I'd recommend bone lacing as a minimum and would highly recommend some kind of strength boost.

Darkest Angel View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 03:32 PM Post #56
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062	Oh yeah, because there's loads of gun totting people with sufficiently strength enhanced cyberlimbs to market these too as well. :please: Look at the market today, there simply isn't huge demand for the .50AE because it's pointless because a 9mm or .45 can do the same job much more cheaply, thus pretty much only the DEagle can fire it. That only changes in SR, because there are big bad trolls and better armour to worry about. Just because Trolls and some modified humans could handle more power, doesn't create either a market or use for it. Just look at those .50BMG pistols - they're one offs for a reason.

HullBreach

Mar 2 2007, 03:45 PM

Post #57

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Look at the market today, there simply isn't huge demand for the .50AE because it's pointless because a 9mm or .45 can do the same job much more cheaply, thus pretty much only the DEagle can fire it.

I used to own an upper receiver for my AR-15 chambered in .50AE made by a company called Tromix.

Your also missing the point: 9mm and .45 do the job fine nowadays because were shooting at normal humans in an enviroment where body armor is rare.

In 2060 body armor is the norm, and your not always shooting at humans. Hell, even when you are shooting at humans, they arent always as squishy as we are. Dermal plating would probobly make short work of a 9mm.

nezumi

Mar 2 2007, 03:45 PM

Post #58

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 2 2007, 10:32 AM)

Oh yeah, because there's loads of gun totting people with sufficiently strength enhanced cyberlimbs to market these too as well. :please:

There's clearly a military and special ops use for them.

edit: Keep in mind, the vast majority of people can't use anything that uses .50 BMG, nor can they legally possess SMGs or flamethrowers or "armor penetrating ammunition". Yet these weapons are still possessed in sufficient quantities for them to be on the market, and for them to be on the street in SR.

My argument continues to be, there is a niche market for weapons too powerful to be handled by an unaugmented human. If your argument is fine, use existing weapons and modify them to fit into a different category (change an AK into an SMG or even a 'machine pistol') so as to avoid making a new category, that's fine, I'll note that. If your argument is that this market does not exist, or is too small to be worth noting, I would have to disagree strenuously.

Darkest Angel View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 04:06 PM Post #59
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062	What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today. My argument is that there may be a niche market for such heavily specialised weapons, just as there is the DEagle today - but such is the specialisation that it should be represented in availability. As I say, the desired effect can be acheived within the rules - if you want to allow that cut down AK to be fired on the Pistols skill, that's fine. At the end of the day, any one make and model in the book does represent 20 or 30 models and copies by a whole variety of manufacturers. So, it's a case of Trolls and sufficiently cybered people can use it without penalty as though it's a pistol - to anyone else, it is an assault rifle.

nezumi

Mar 2 2007, 04:36 PM

Post #60

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today.

I never said common on the street. I simply said 'on the street'. As flame throwers and APDS ammunitions are all listed in their assorted books, we can assume they are available to criminal elements and therefore, on the street.

QUOTE

My argument is that there may be a niche market for such heavily specialised weapons, just as there is the DEagle today - but such is the specialisation that it should be represented in availability.

That's fair.

QUOTE

So, it's a case of Trolls and sufficiently cybered people can use it without penalty as though it's a pistol - to anyone else, it is an assault rifle.

I don't know about that... I feel like a gun with no stock, a "short" barrel, and only one grip (so it cannot be properly used two handed) is not an assault rifle, regardless as to what it originally looked like. A sawed off shotgun (the streetsweeper) is no longer a shotgun, it is now a pistol.

Similarly, I would be hesitant to group our sawed off assault rifle in any current categories. Assault rifle? No, its made to be used one-handed. Machine pistol? Hrm... All machine pistols do a base of L damage, so it would seem sort of out of odds there. Heavy Pistol? Closer. The Thunderbolt is technically a machine pistol, but grouped with heavy pistols.

I think the question at that point is simply one of definitions, though. I don't feel like a sawed off assault rifle currently fits any of the existing categories, hence should be put into a new sub-category. I suppose you feel it can be forced into one of the existing categories (or even several).

Regardless, there are no sawed off assault rifles in the rules. They can be created with the rules, but there are not yet any examples. My question, poorly worded though it may have been, was more interested in whether these odd weapons would exist than how the rules would cope with them. It sounds like you are willing to accept that there would be a market for sawed-off assault rifles.

I suppose, reading the responses, that as a SA/SS handgun is scaled up in caliber, there is no reason why it still has the single-hand restriction. If the barrel is so short that there's no space for a fore grip, it gets no substantial benefits from having a larger bullet, so you might as well stick with a smaller caliber. If the barrel is long enough for the bullet to actually function as a bullet at that size, it can support a front grip and is basically a CQB, large-gauge shotgun. Does this sound reasonable?

Darkest Angel View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 05:12 PM Post #61
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062	My point is that the weapons are built for Joe Average 3s accross the board stats man, and what catagory each weapon applies to, is how it would apply him. If you make a 'Very Heavy Pistol', everyone will want one, and want to be able to handle it as a pistol, when in fact Joe Average would need to hold it in two hands, just as they would with an Assault Rifle with a collapsable stock in it's folded down position. So, in terms of Joe Average - upon whom the catagories are based - you have just created yet another Assault Rifle - but, just as with regular Assault Rifles, trolls and particularly big and strong people can handle them like pistols.

nezumi

Mar 2 2007, 06:30 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

If you make a 'Very Heavy Pistol', everyone will want one, and want to be able to handle it as a pistol, when in fact Joe Average would need to hold it in two hands, just as they would with an Assault Rifle with a collapsable stock in it's folded down position.

I think this is where we truly disagree.

If I made a new category, VHP, it would be usable by Joe Average only if he were willing to be physically hurt when making each shot. In other words, the recoil is so extreme that it cannot be safely handled by a Strength 3 character.

I am unaware of any way that I could use a large pistol (say a desert eagle) with two hands "just as [I] would with an assault rifle with a collapsable stock in its folded down position". Perhaps if you could illuminate me as to how a single-grip pistol frame could be handled like a long gun, I'd agree with you.

Darkest Angel View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 08:03 PM Post #63
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062	Which takes me back to the demand issue, only very specialised gunsmiths are going to produce such a thing, because the market for something like that would be tiny. You assess the actual cost of augmenting a normal human to be able to withstand such a weapon you're suggesting, and convince me that anyone, even a major corp, is going to go to such an expense, on such a regular basis that they need this weapon? A pistol is a backup, not a first choice, anything around the size you're suggesting is already bigger than a lot of SMGs, which are primary weapons. Sure, there's trolls and cybered threats around, but that's why Heavy Pistols are popular and no one uses a Hold Out. It's why corp security has rapid response teams with ARs and SMGs. It's why Lone Star pack Thunderbolts.

X-Kalibur

Mar 2 2007, 08:14 PM

Post #64

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Which takes me back to the demand issue, only very specialised gunsmiths are going to produce such a thing, because the market for something like that would be tiny. You assess the actual cost of augmenting a normal human to be able to withstand such a weapon you're suggesting, and convince me that anyone, even a major corp, is going to go to such an expense, on such a regular basis that they need this weapon? A pistol is a backup, not a first choice, anything around the size you're suggesting is already bigger than a lot of SMGs, which are primary weapons.

Sure, there's trolls and cybered threats around, but that's why Heavy Pistols are popular and no one uses a Hold Out. It's why corp security has rapid response teams with ARs and SMGs. It's why Lone Star pack Thunderbolts.

And that is precisely what the availability table is meant to represent. There was something that very likely fits the description of the VHP in SR3 with Eichiro Hatamoto. Didn't even break your wrist to fire it, but the availability on it was quite high, as was the Street Index. If Cannon Companion had rules for upgrading the M on a Heavy Pistol to an S, at the cost of most of its ammo storage, inability to mount barrel accessories, and more than likely use an internal magazine. The whole idea is that you waste the fragger with the couple shots you've got in it while you make your way to something more effective, or just take the poor sod's, whose head is now a bloody splatter on the wall, weapon that is hopefully an SMG or larger. It's precisely why my SR3 streetsam packed a Savalette Guardian and an Eichiro Hatamoto. While the burst on the Guardian is a complex action, I've managed to take an armored troll down in that one burst before. It took down a sizeable threat and allowed me to take his AR and hose down the remaining opposition.

Darkest Angel View Member Profile	Mar 2 2007, 08:24 PM Post #65
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062	Thanks for proving my point. Why produce a VHP when a regular HP with BF is sufficiently adequate to do the same job and anyone can use it? The title of the thread is "is the VHP necessary?" You have demonstrated perfectly why it is not imho necessary.

X-Kalibur

Mar 2 2007, 08:32 PM

Post #66

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Thanks for proving my point. Why produce a VHP when a regular HP with BF is sufficiently adequate to do the same job and anyone can use it?

The title of the thread is "is the VHP necessary?" You have demonstrated perfectly why it is not imho necessary.

I'm arguing that the top end HPs are realistically VHPs that could be expanded upon more.

Wounded Ronin

Mar 3 2007, 01:35 AM

Post #67

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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today.

You're probably not aware that in the United States some people own machine guns. Not assault rifles or SMGs, but actual machine guns like Browning Automatic Rifles and M60s.

So, I don't think your analogy holds water.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Mar 3 2007, 03:28 AM Post #68
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

Wounded Ronin

Mar 3 2007, 03:39 AM

Post #69

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

I'm not totally read up on the process but I think the hardest part is getting some paperwork successfully through the ATF. It's not as trival to own them as it is (relatively speaking) a handgun or shotgun, no.

HullBreach

Mar 3 2007, 03:57 AM

Post #70

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

Going through this process myself. It sucks, and is expensive, but it's the only way to get access to the fun toys. Basically it consists of a federal background check, $200 tax, and LOTS of paperwork. The entire process is intended to discourage ownership by annoyance.

Sad part is, Im not even bagging an automatic, I just want to put a front grip on a Bushmaster Carbon-15.

Back on subject though, this topic does breach an even larger one: If a player can get away with larger than normal pistols, what about super-heavy variants on longarms?

10 and even 8 gauge shotguns are within this realm of possibillity. Or a .300wsm Assault rifle. So many sick ideas...

nezumi View Member Profile	Mar 3 2007, 03:59 AM Post #71
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Yeah, plus there may be state restrictions. If you already had a gov't background check for your job, does that count?

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Mar 3 2007, 04:04 AM Post #72
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	Okay I dont understand the argument that no one would produce a gun for a specialized portion of the population. The game already has metahuman modifications as a feature. We have very specialized guns right now. What is the problem? I dont think that the question should be is the VHP necessary. I think that it should be why isnt it already in the game. It doesnt make sense as a game balence issue. Shadowrun has always had poor game balence. None of this stuff is all that balenced in the first place. You shoot someone with a high skill and a heavy gun then they die. It's a deadly game. Magic users are deadly too. Heavy weapons and strength are the schtick of Trolls. Let them have that and move on.

HullBreach

Mar 3 2007, 04:04 AM

Post #73

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QUOTE (nezumi)

Yeah, plus there may be state restrictions.

If you already had a gov't background check for your job, does that count?

Negative. It's got to be a fresh one. The BATFE doesn't play well with others.

Hell, I'd love to get one of these, as theyre considered Class 3 as well:
http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

Too bad I don't have that kind of scratch on hand.

Darkest Angel

Mar 3 2007, 09:17 AM

Post #74

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QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Okay I dont understand the argument that no one would produce a gun for a specialized portion of the population. The game already has metahuman modifications as a feature. We have very specialized guns right now. What is the problem?

Modifying an existing weapon is a lot cheaper than designing, testing, and producing a whole new one.

Trolls, iirc are like 1% of the population, the vast majority are poor and live in slum districts. Heavily cybered people from every other race combined add up to even less, so catering for wealthy enough trolls and wealthy enough heavily cybered people is catering for a fringe of a fringe - big corps just don't do that, they churn out what they can sell thousands of.

Those very specialised guns around today are made to order by small time gunsmiths. I've never argued with that. The stuff in the books however, is based on what is readily available and produced in sufficient quantities that you could to run into them on the street. Every 'counter' I've seen so far is "but you can get this today!" so what? they're all insanely rare toys that have been sold in numbers that barely exceed double figures. I see no reason to include something like that in canon.

knasser View Member Profile	Mar 3 2007, 11:01 AM Post #75
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636	Don't there have to be troll sized variant weapons due to trolls inability to use normal sized weapons? A while back I sketched out the actual size differences in different metahumans according to SR4 BBB. Different Metatype Sizes. Look at the difference between a troll and a human. Unless trolls have comically small hands for their build, I wouldn't think they'd be able to use most standard firearms comfortably (confirmation from the gun nuts, please). So if any trolls are to have firearms (esp. pistols) in your game, then we're already saying that there has to be a custom market. And if that's the case, then I can certainly see the possibility of this market providing more power too, whether for marketing purposes or an actual need in a world where body armour is frequently worn and you have people who can shrug off lighter rounds. The argument that it is catering to a "fringe of a fringe" and therefore not economically viable is a pretty weak one because with a world population of, let's say, six billion, that's sixty million trolls out there to sell to. And if you want to say that trolls are also marginalised and poor, then I'd say that means an increased desire on their part for firearms that outweighs any difficulty in paying. If you're saying that all the kids in the USA that have firearms have well-paying middle-class jobs, then I think you're mistaken. And finally, in countries with a lot of civil unrest (of which there are plenty in 2070), I'd say that trolls are going to be used in militias and armies quite extensively. There is an incentive to arm these trolls so somebody somewhere will make them. these weapons. And if so, then a Shadowrunner should be able to get hold of them, too. The only question is whether or not these troll weapons would be made with extra power. I know very little about guns, but I think the case that there was a use for this in the cybered, trolled-up body-armour loving world of 2070 was put quite convincingly earlier in the thread by people more knowledgeable on the subject than me.

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