I spoke to an old vet about M14 versus M16A1, Firearms history/realism post Options

[Wounded Ronin]

Yesterday I sat at a bar getting drunk with this skinny elderly fellow who used to be in the Army in 1962. He knows that I like history so he started telling me about the P38 can opener. Then, I had a flash of inspiration and asked him about M14s. Apparently he'd had the chance to operate M1s, M14s, and M16A1s.

"Everything I've read on the internet says that the M14 had excessive muzzle climb when fired in full auto. Was that true in your experience?"

He replied, "No, it was very easy to control in full auto! The M16, that was hard to control in full auto! You'd fire it and it would jerk upwards much harder than the M14. They they did something with it and instead of jerking upwards it would jerk to the right. Then they did something more and it was jerking to the left!"


This was interesting because, well, everything on the internet tells you the M14 was fiercely difficult to control on full auto. Also, the old M16A1s must have been really terrible if they were harder to control in 5.56 than M14s in 7.62. This tidbit was particularly interesting to me because someone who was in the Army more recently said that you could hold a M16A2 against your testicles and fire it and get nothing more than a pleasant vibration. The A2 must be a lot better behaved than the old A1s.

[Crakkerjakk]

The testicle comment is a slight exaggeration. M16A2s are different than A1s in that they only fire burst fire(3 round burst per trigger pull), not full auto. They also implemented a brass deflector to prevent ejected shell casings from flinging themselves down your collar in the prone quite so much. They also use circular hand guards, as opposed to triangular hand guards. There may have been some internal reworkings, but I'm not aware of what precisely those changes may have been.

He may have just felt that M14s were more controllable due to more familiarity with the weapon. Regardless, all of my training on any automatic firearm has been to use short controlled bursts. The only point of laying on the trigger is to convince folks to keep there head down.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Fuck. Mozilla ate my reply. Another run minus all the hard numbers.

Far bigger bullets and more propellant together with a stock well below the barrel, instead of being in line with it like on the M16 rifles, mean the M14 recoils more and force is directed more upwards, ceteris paribus. This person was most likely more comfortable with the M14 to such a degree that he felt more in control of the M14 anyway.

[Edit]The M16A2 is meant to fire 62gr bullets at 3025fps (M855) as opposed to 56gr bullets at 3250fps (M193), and the weapon is 1.4lbs heavier. This makes for about 20% less recoil energy, although the recoil impulse remains roughly the same. That might be too small an effect to be noticed by most shooters, but if (and I have no particular reason to think this is so) there is a trend towards thinking the M16A2 has less recoil than the M16A1, this might be part of the explanation.

The 3-round burst limiter mentioned by Crakkerjakk above would of course also play a role in people's perceptions of the recoil.[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 3 2007, 02:16 AM

[Crakkerjakk]

The M16 also has a spring inside the stock that the bolt retracts against after firing, when it chambers the next round, after being driven backwards by the expanding gas from the powder. This is the main reason for the light recoil of a M16. It really doesn't have a lot more kick than a 22. A little bit more, but not much. Most folks I know could shoot one all day, unlike my 30-06 which I have trouble putting more than two boxes(40 rounds) of ammo through in a day. I've personally gone through...250 rounds on a m16 in one day. At least. I think we did more at coach's course, but it was a while back. I don't think the M14 has this, given it's wood stock and older tech.

[HullBreach]

[Large Mike]

I use the Canadian C7A2, which is essentially an M16 with a retractable stock and the ability to fire full auto, rather than in bursts, and I gotta tell you, after about 4 shots, it actually does get pretty hard to control.

Although that's not my problem. Machine gunners do it defilade.

[HullBreach]

[Crakkerjakk]

Wierdest thing about firing the M16 is the slight "sproing" noise you can hear when you have your cheek against the butstock. Can actually hear the spring inside, so it's like, "Bam-sproing, Bam-sproing."

[Butterblume]

I know several people who have a permanent hearing impairment from firing the G3 without earplugs.

[HullBreach]

[Thane36425]

[mfb]

[warrior_allanon]

i can give explanation on why the A1 your friend was talking about would go one way and then the other after it was fiddled with. The Original A1's the muzzle break was screwed on and though it wasnt supposed to be adjustable, was. Thus, if the break had its center opening pointing to the left the rifle would jerk right and vice versa as well as up for down and so on. The M14 on the other hand its muzzle break was made with the barrel so it didnt turn giving the same problem

[Butterblume]

The War Nerd agrees (Most Valuable Weapon: the RPG)

[Wounded Ronin]

[Crakkerjakk]

@ Thane

The M16 is an accurate rifle. It may not have as much stopping power as heavier rounds, but most people trained to do so(including myself, and I'm guessing Hullbreach and SgtShellback. Semper Fi guys.) can hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights at least 80-90% of the time. Which is a hell of a lot farther than most folks ever engage a target(outside of "designated marksman" aka snipers.)

[Thane36425]

[Crakkerjakk]

Sorry, misread your post. :oops:

[Thane36425]

[Kagetenshi]

[Wounded Ronin]

[HullBreach]

'Semper fi' is short for 'Semper Fidelis' which is latin for "Always Faithful"

It is representative of our undying loyalty to our nation, and our brother and sister Marines.

Ooh-Rah is somthing we like to grunt and yell at each other. Im not entirely sure why, but like most Marine traditions Im sure its origin involves large amounts of drinking and at least one barfight.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Butterblume]

[HullBreach]