Cyberware, the SR3R way Options

[Eyeless Blond]

[nezumi]

My problem with the 'cyberlimbs have a natural strength of a bazillion, but software puts a cap on it' is that any he device amount of strength increases the cost and weight of a the arm in question. If we assume attributes are on a bell curve, less than 9% of the (human) population has a natural strength of 6 or above. So 92% of your customer base would prefer a cyberlimb centered around a strength of 4 or 5, which can then be toned down with software from there. Producing your Strength 5 cyberlimb reduces the cost of the arm and increases the ergonomics of it, without greatly reducing your customer base, so that should be 'standard'. Strength increases above that cost extra, since their modifications (but probably don't require essence costs for a good, long while).

Quickness is a different issue. Given how quick electronics are, I imagine a quickness of 6 is just as cheap as a quickness of 1 arm, so why bother making it anything less than 6 and using the software cap? The only real weak link is between the arm and the natural nervous system. The stronger the pathways, the quicker the arm.

So IMO, arms should have a strength/quickness of 5 by default. Strength additions go up to 4 levels, costing relatively little money and no essence. Past that the price goes up quickly unless you have a cybertorso to connect them to (and there's still the risk of breaking your legs or whatnot if you're trying to lift a car). Quickness additions... I don't know, I imagine they'd cost nuyen and essence for all levels, but don't require a cybertorso ever.

Thoughts?

[Kagetenshi]

In this case "quickness" means speed and precision of movement, which I certainly don't see being constant-cost over that range.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

Eh, maybe I'm just seeing artificial muscle as developing more quickly over the next 60 years, and the value of mass-producing the same high-power muscle over and over being better than having to custom-build even a few pieces.

Look at how microchips are made these days. Even though many brands are sold at several different speeds, they are all made in exactly the same process. In fact, the manufacturing process for a 2.4GHtz processor is EXACTLY THE SAME as a 2.8GHtz processor; they are literally the SAME CHIP! The only difference is that the 2.4 GHtz model isn't tested quite as rigorously, and the limiter it has in it reduces it to a lower default clock speed.

This, I imagine, is what cyberarm manufacture will be like in the 2060s. By then making muscles stronger than human will be so trivial it won't even be worth making something weaker, rather like how noone manufactures 486s anymore. Everything is made the same, and can run at the same high level, at least in theory, but the higher-priced, higher-Str/Qui models will just have a slightly higher QC standard--thus not taking as much potential damage when run harder--and have limiters built into them, limiters that can be bypassed

[Graiser]

I can accept that about logic chips. I can't about hardware.
The way I see it is you might swap out the servos of your arm for beefier ones, or you might slap on some booster units that tie into the same control circuits.

They're right about the stronger arms weighing more. They might also tax the power distribution system more.

Since you can get equivalent, (at least I think so,) results from ganged smaller units, I don't see manufacturing the larger units, so much as making them more upgradable.

I like your idea of making essence-free upgrades cap higher.

Two things to consider.
One. You have two parallel nervous systems. One is dominant when you're at rest, (and allows for more precision.) One is dominant when you're scared, nervous, spooked, etc, (and generally is cruder in its control.) Supposedly, just tying into this existing system would allow even the most ridiculously overdeveloped cyberlimb to function with full fidelity in the range of conditions a natural limb would. Of course, spook the guy with the jumped-up cyberlegs and you might be prying him out of the ceiling tiles.

Two. Even if this weren't so. I can't see many people not having that software override DNI equipped, so they can call on the full potency when they are conciously aware of needing it. Need to lift a car? Deactivate override. Brace shoulder (so the back isn't doing the work, the arm is, working as a glorified jack.) Flex.

However. I do agree that speed should require better equipment. This doesn't have to be essence-intensive right from the start, however. The initial stages could be better interpretation software and hardware for what signals are already being fed to the arm. The latter stages would be when the person would need a wider bandwidth to the brain itself.
And as for reinforcing...I could see a guy with a superfast arm giving himself a cramp, or tearing a non-associated ligament, trying to use that arm at full speed. Imagine your pair of super-legs turning that corner as fast as you asked, and giving you whiplash as a result.

Perhaps just leave it as written, but raise the "racial maximums" for cyberware to something 2 points higher than unmodified. Anything over the new maximum needs additional work, (and essence) to pull off.

So a human can have that shiny new arm peaked out to 8,8,8, but to roll one stat up to 9, he has to pay more essence.

Edit. Oh. Also make sure those initial stats are racially adjusted. No sense in a troll getting a puny starter limb with initial stats at 4. They should be B6,Q3,S5, for instance.

[tisoz]

[Eyeless Blond]

I, on the other hand, think we should concentrate on how we want the gameplay to work, and then fill in the rules and the flavor text to fit. Frankly we have no idea what cyberlimbs will look like in 60+ years because according to SR game history we are about to have a number of technological revolutions, each of which entirely redefine how replacement limbs work and are created. First off we have the neural interface revolution, resulting in, by 2060, machines that can not only seamlessly interface with the human brain, but can in many cases improve it. Secondly, we have nanotechnology and biotechnology, both of which completely changes how things can be produced in ways we can't currently fathom.

Trying to second-guess how 2060's era cyberlimbs will work is about as vacuous as people in the 1940s trying to second-guess how computers will be manufactured and will work sixty years later. Hell, even twenty years ago Bill Gates was predicting that the Intel 80286 processor would provide more processing power than a person would ever need. Now we have cell phones with more processing power than a 286, and we've got quad-core P4s being created for end-user PCs.

I expect similar things to happen to cyberlimbs when future-age biotechnology and nanotechnology come to manufacturing. (Edit: bah, hit Post instead of Preview): By this I mean that I expect that the world of 2060 will quite certainly surprise us in what is not only possible, but economically viable, and we shouldn't limit ourselves to merely what we can reasonably project to happen with today's manufacturing paradigms.

If you agree with that, then it would actually be better if we reasoned from the top down, going from how we want to have the game function and fashioning flavor text to fit, than starting with out own preconceived notions about what tech in the 2060s will be like and attempting to fashion game mechanics based on these notions. For myself, speaking purely from a gamplay standpoint, I personally wouldn't want to have to deal with unbalanced attribute contributions from cyberlimbs unless I was willing to make the effort. This is why I'm proposing a system that doesn't force the player to deal with unequal attributes, for the players with cyberlimbs who don't bother to screw with the limb much, and even with those who do bother to screw with the limb, but only at the times when they're attempting to make that extra effort to actively turbocharge said limb.

[Graiser]

Most of the time, it wouldn't matter.

If a person is picking up something with both limbs, and one is significantly stronger than the other, average the results. If a person is going out of their way to use their "master" hand, give it full benefit. If they're doing something that is typically a master hand activity, like holding a gun, give it full benefit.

As for flavor-text, I agree. However, the flavortext needs to make enough sense to the semi-informed that it doesn't break them out of their suspension of disbelief.

A good example is the old "ShadowTech" book. This book was written by a couple well-educated people, who knew nothing more of nano-technology than a name. They invented a class of bioengineered bacteria around this name, to do the task true autonomous nanotech would be put to.

A few years later, during a rewrite, this was corrected.

Ideally, the flavortext should follow the game design, but still sound plausible enough, as written, that people can accept it.

To that end, since cyberlimbs are supposed to be a core part of the game-world, and since cyberlimbs and natural replacement limbs cost such similar amounts, (with natural limbs being superior, as they don't consume essence,) there needs to be some "cool factor" to cyberlimbs such that people would get them electively. Starting out with stats higher than natural is one such way. "Cheap" access to higher stats, is similar. ("Cheap" in that you don't have to spend time in the gym acquiring/maintaining them.) Room for gadgets is naturally a third, but cyberlimb gadgets, collectively, have to be sufficiently non-threatening, with sufficient broad appeal that the guy with a tool tied into his arm isn't a freak.

Personally, I'm in agreement with Case, (the main character of William Gibsons "Neuromancer"), when he decried implanted wristwatches as a pointless alteration. Want a watch? Wear a watch. No benefit from having it welded to your bone. Thus, their has to be something extra-beneficial about implanting watches, or sensible, and practical, people won't bother with them.

Oh, and you want a reason for dropping the base quickness for a trolls cyberarm to three? Well, I did so, because the base quickness for a troll is 2, so 3 is 1+. A decent flavortext would point out the difference in the high-torque motors usually implanted in basic troll arms, and how you can get better, for a price.
No, I wasn't saying the limbs would be 4,4,4 on a human, but stick them on a troll, and they'd suddenly be 6,3,5. Rather, I figure all cyberlimbs need to be fitted to the user, and thus a troll would automatically get a troll arm. This troll arm would have a baseline of 6,3,5.
Actually, for non-synthetic, the frame would probably be crafted to order, or fabricated on sight, with the interface, power systems, and servos snapped in from standard stock. Synthetic would have to be customized or everyone would notice it. It would be the wrong color, even if only by a bit. I don't remember if the SR3 rules spoke of racial modification prices for cyberware, but I've just assumed all cyberware would be priced as if not.

[Link]

[Xirces]

I've just been catching up with all the posts on SR3R - very interesting indeed. Probably goes to show when I last checked in here :)

One thing that's really caught my imagination is the handling of reaction/initiative boosters and the conversation around that, the encephalon and how it relates to rigging and decking.

I like the idea of having the "mental" speed boost, which is then limited by the interface the deck/drone (or whatever), but I'm not entirely sure that it should come purely from the encephalon. I was also interested in how this interacts with something like wired reflexes, but then I realised that maybe the solution is to have a set of modules...

The first would be a "mental reaction boost" - this actually handles the speed increase. From there I can see a "rigging interface" - out through a datajack; a "decking interface" - again out through a datajack and a "physical interface" - to the body wiring. The body wiring, interface and brain component would equate to the same level WR as today; the brain component and rigging interface = VCR; the brain component itself replaces the response increase for a deck (although obviously the deck itself needs to have a correctly rated interface). In any case where the components are differently rated the lower rating applies.

I can see this working pretty well and allowing some great mix and match characters without breaking the existing system - after all WR is just a package deal on three components etc (exactly the same way as smartlinks were modularised without changing existing characters).

Obviously things such as the encephalon, chip/datajack (and potentially even skillwires) could interact with such a system as well. For some reason the idea of modular, multi-function, reusable cyberware components really excites me. I can see issues about how this would work in conjunction with other speed enhancers, but I guess they could be mostly resolved by simply making them mutually exclusive.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[nezumi]

So you're looking to take wired and break it into three components that can be installed as a group or as individual bits? Why not just take wired as the physical reaction bit and say the encephalon (or whatever piece of ware you care to name) is the mental bit?

If you're interested in breaking the VCR up into the vehicle interface and the mental boost, many people already play it that way. I know people who say the VCR only provide an initiative boost and decrease to vehicle test modifiers, but you still need a second datajack as an actual interface.

I think codifying things a little bit more and letting you mix and match, so a VCR plus an encephalon plus a datajack is better than some other combination would be a lot of fun, but by my reading, rather than scaling down the devices you've mentioned, I'd think they already were scaled down (wired doesn't increase mental initiative, VCR doesn't include the actual interface, etc.) The only change I can really imagine is breaking the VCR into TN modifiers and initiative boosts (which doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me). Thoughts?

[Xirces]

I think we're looking at this the same way - I get the impression that you're looking for the encephalon to the be the "master controller" for this system, whereas for me it's just a component to interact with it (or, on reflection the speed-bonus module is a co-processor (like the Math SPU))

To clarify what I intended starting with the WR example - I'd split the current system in two components - brain and body - together (for WR2) they'd cost ~165k and use 3 essence. The body component is useless by itself (unless skillwires could take advantage...) and you could mix levels - the interaction happening at the lower of the two levels. The same brain component would form part of a VCR (with a "VCR adapter) and the matrix response boost (in conjunction with the "deck adapter".

That way, a rigger needs only add the "deck adapter" to his config to become a decker, which is cheaper and more essence friendly, but at the same time the VCR "package" he has is functionally identical to the core system VCR. The reaction/initiative increase comes from the speed module, the ability to use that in a vehicle, plus the TN benefit comes from the VCR adapter. In all cases, without an adapter/connector the speed module is almost useless, but it's the source of most of the bonuses and advantages!

Hopefully that makes more sense. I'll see if I can knock up a system diagram for it :)

The only real change happens for deckers - moving the response increase internally will require some essence that they currently wouldn't use, but that's maybe not a bad thing. One of the greatest benefits is the increased flexibility of the cyberware.

quick and dirty diagram

[darthmord]

[Kagetenshi]

Any other opinions on how to deal with cyberlimb stats?

I'm also requesting proposals for an unbalanced strength system that doesn't suck. Not that I have evidence that one exists, but if you think you have one, I want to hear about it.

~J

[Link]

What's wrong with them?
Here are the relevant rules from M&M & Cybertechnology for everyone's consideration.

Man & Machine

[ Spoiler ]

Unbalanced Strength
Cyberlimb-equipped characters with more than one cyberlimb or cyberlimbs with Strength enhancements may have different Strength Ratings for different limbs.
A character with limbs of different Strength Ratings may not be able to take full advantage of a limb’s Strength in every situation. As a broad guideline, assume that if the character can apply a limb properly in a situation, that limb’s full Strength Rating can be used. For example, a character trying to pull up someone who has fallen over the edge of a building can use the Strength Rating for the cyberarm that is actually supporting the fallen person. In this same situation, the character cannot use the Strength Ratings of his other limbs unless he manages to get proper leverage or succesfully brace the limb. If a character manages to use more than one limb to its full advantage in a given situation, use the average of the Strength Ratings (round down) for those limbs. In situations such as unarmed or armed combat, it is impossible to tell for certain when and how a particular limb is being used, so the player must choose one of the following alternatives. The player’s character may use the average Strength Rating of all four limbs as the Strength Rating for melee combat. If the character also has Strength-enhancing cyberware such as muscle replacement or muscle augmentation, the appropriate Strength bonuses from such cyberware apply to all natural limbs equally and should be added to the Strength of each natural limb. Alternatively, the character can lead his attack with any limb he chooses (within reason; leading with a cyberleg when attacking with an ax makes no sense). He then uses the Strength Rating of only that limb for the attack. Attacks made with a lead limb receive a maximum melee Power bonus of +1.

Cybertechnology

[ Spoiler ]

Strength Enhancements
The following rules for Strength enhancements offer a new level of complexity, and so game masters and players alike should study them carefully before using them.
All cyberlimbs are assumed to have a built-in Strength of 3. If characters choose to enhance their cyberlimbs—or beef up their natural limbs with muscle replacement and/or augmentation— they may have to deal with problems that can surface when different limbs end up with different Strength ratings. (Imagine a character whose left arm has Strength 3, right arm Strength 5. a right leg Strength 7. and a left leg Strength 4, Yikes!)
If a character's various limbs have different Strength ratings, the true rating of any given limb can only be used in specific circumstances. The game master must determine what happens in any given situation, as the possibilities are too numerous to devise rules for in detail. As a broad guideline, assume that if the character can apply a particular limb properly in a given situation, that limb's full Strength Rating can be used. For example, a character trying to pull up someone who has fallen over the edge of a building can use the true Strength Rating for the limb that is actually supporting the fallen person. In this same situation, the character cannot use the Strength Ratings of his other limbs unless he manages to get leverage or bracing that allows the application of strength from them. If a character manages to apply more than one limb in a given situation, use the average of all the Strength Ratings (round down) for those limbs.
In certain situations, such as unarmed or armed combat, it is impossible to tell for certain when and how a particular limb is being used. In this case- the player must choose between one or the other of the following alternatives.
The players character may use an average Strength Rating—adding up the Strength ratings of all four limbs and then dividing by Four (rounding down)—as the Strength Rating for melee combat. If the character also has muscle replacement or muscle augmentation, the appropriate Strength bonuses apply to all limbs equally and should be added to the Strength of each natural limb.
Alternatively, the player can have his character try to lead with the highest-strength limb the character possesses. This option allows a character to take full advantage of enhanced limbs.
A player who makes this choice finds the average Strength Rating mentioned above and must apply a modifier to the target numbers for Melee Combat Tests equal to the difference between that average and the Strength Rating of the chosen limb. For example, a character with one arm at Strength 3, the other at Strength 5, a right leg at Strength 4 and a left leg at Strength 7 has an average Strength Rating 4. If this character wants to lead with his Strength 5 arm he must fight with a + 1 modifier to the target number for all Melee Combat Tests (5 - 4 = 1).

[Kagetenshi]

Proposal:

Cyberlimbs default to the user's natural Strength and Quickness. Enhancements will have three cost levels—one for improvements up to the Racial Modified Limit or natural attribute (whichever is higher), which will be very inexpensive and cost no Essence, one for improvements up to Racial Maximum, which will be relatively inexpensive but cost Essence, and one for improvements above Racial Maximum, which will cost more along the lines of current improvements (expensive, in other words). Exact prices will come soon. Increasing the natural attribute beyond the RML (and thus reducing the price of a previously-purchased enhancement) will enable a relatively low-cost adjustment by a cybertechnician that will free up the Essence hole that would not be spent had the limb been enhanced after the attribute increase.

The unbalanced rules may not be as bad as I thought, having given a few days of consideration to them. However, another issue now needs solving, since highly-cybered characters are now feasible: a simple divide between "cybered" and "uncybered" attribute for things like skill improvement no longer makes sense. Can a character with four cyberlimbs, a cybertorso, and a cyberskull be said to have a natural Strength or Quickness? How do we resolve this issue? One way might be by making the Cybertorso change the whole ballgame, but I'm not sure that's a good solution.

~J

[nezumi]

For the purpose of skills, I would say that strength should be a function of averages (of only the appropriate limbs if necessary). For example, firing a gun is a function of the two arms, so having a quickness 9 arm and a quickness 4 arm would result in an average of 6 (13/2). Unarmed combat is a full body skill, so it would be based off all the limbs over 4 (do torsos and skulls even have strength?)

Alternatively, we may want to arrange it so skills are more impacted by the lowest limb. Fighting when you have a 'bum arm' (Strength of 1 while the rest of you is strength of 4) is significantly harder than just having a full body with strength of 3. Having a single cyberarm with a strength of 20 while the rest of your body is at 4 shouldn't seriously benefit your learning anything short of how to win the hammer game at the carnival.

[Kagetenshi]

There's skills, but there's also pool. Why would the Quickness of the muscles that a full borg doesn't have any more impact their Combat Pool more than their souped-up cyberlimbs?

For skills, at least, if it weren't for muscle aug we could just go with an average and not ruin the specialness of bioware. Unfortunately, the existence of muscle aug makes the skills and pool benefits very important as a differentiator—we could just throw it out, especially since that route can now be taken with a strength-auged cyberlimb, but I'd want to hear more opinions.

~J

[djinni]

[Kagetenshi]

But why would that still be true three, six, eighteen years down the line? And why doesn't it apply to Muscle Toner?

~J

[Link]

[nezumi]

I would divide attributes by 4. I don't see any significant reason why the torso or head should be included, and it makes the math a little neater (plus makes cyber less pricey).

I agree that pools should be an average of the limbs. Muscle aug simply applies to ALL limbs.