My Assistant
Site Message
(Message will auto close in 2 seconds)
  |
 Noticing Magic, I could really use some clarifications |
 Mar 6 2007, 02:29 PM
Post
#51
|
|||
|
ghostrider  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333  |
Depends on the situation. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Mar 6 2007, 04:32 PM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,417 |
Here is my take as a GM. A physical spell would be quite obvious at higher force because it manifest on the physical plane. Mana spells would be obvious on the target at higher levels, especially the damage variety, because of the effect. Force 10 stunbolt, mage uses edge, gets +8 net hits doing 18 damage will cause blood to pure from victims orifices. This amount of magic power would definite rip through the astral and physical saying magic is in use. People's heads don't usually implode on their own for no reason. I like the DBZ focus that someone came up with. I think in the case mention above the mage definitely would have made a brick in his pants, giving an odor aspect to the visual concentration required. Mental activity at high levels usually have some sort of physical connection. Zoning completely out with a blank stare, to sweating profusely, a slight rocking back and forth, to maybe even a twitching of the eye rapidly. Each person would exhibit something that fits their character.
I think that what is at question here are people's different RPG experience. Some systems spell out everything, while other leave more to GM interpretation. Everything really comes down to having fun to me. Any time rules start to get in the way of role-playing and storytelling, I think it is time to bend them some. Well, there is my 2¥ worth. -- You wanted an argument? Oh, I'm sorry, but this is abuse, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor |
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 04:35 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Nice Monty Python reference there.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 06:26 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
But you're not arguing, you're just contradicting me.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 06:33 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
But that is the start of an argument... Either that or we have to have a misunderstanding to start one off.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 07:09 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Uh... per RAW p. 168, you don't notice magic.
You notice someone using magical skills. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 07:57 PM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
"Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. Th e gamemaster should apply additional modifi ers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice)." |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 6 2007, 08:34 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed. :?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 08:39 PM
Post
#59
|
|||
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Now we are going to get questions asking what using a magical skill looks like though. It does get by the whole, what does magic look like, and some of the spell/magical effects issues, but it ends up being the same thing in the end. What does using something none of us have any idea looks like, look like? While I enjoy the challenge and latitude to make visceral and fun descriptive imaginative flavor to my games, apparently some others want more. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 6 2007, 08:40 PM
Post
#60
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 6 2007, 08:42 PM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I love that last one
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 6 2007, 10:20 PM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Omaha, UCAS Member No.: 7,090 |
Imagination. It's a wonderful thing. (Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but that's kind of the point of the whole game.) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 6 2007, 10:28 PM
Post
#63
|
|||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Its sort of like writing a Western in which the protagonist's horse draws a gun and shoots down the seemingly victorious bad guy just in the nick of time. Sure, the rules say that horses don't have hands, but there is no reason to let that get in the way of the story. Of course, the rules you set up are a necessary part of the story. To ignore them is to lie to the audience. You don't suddenly decide that horses have the ability to fire guns in the middle of an otherwise genre-standard Western. In the case of an RPG, ignoring the rules to help the story isn't just lying, it's cheating. If the BBB says intense concentration, then that is what I'm going to go with, The character can't be sure that the intense concentration is from magic use and can't tell what magic is being used, and I like that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 6 2007, 10:33 PM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
It wasnt a horse at all, it was the protagonist's sidekicks in a horse costume.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 7 2007, 03:13 AM
Post
#65
|
|||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
And that just begs the old "common sense: how much do you have, and how much should you use" argument. Saying that the lack of a specific rule gives carte blanche for pointless ludicrousness has never been a very strong argument in my opinion. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 7 2007, 04:44 AM
Post
#66
|
|||||||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I wasn't referring to the lack of a specific rule. I was referring to a rule that says you can ignore any and all rules for the sake of the "story". Common sense doesn't factor into it. If the pre-established rule is changed or ignored mid-story, that's just bad storytelling. Good storytelling builds on what has already been established and establishes everything important long before it is actually important. However, in this specific case the lack of a specific rule does give cart blanch. RPG that is set in the real world, very few rules need to be explained because we are all familiar with the real world. However, Shadowrun contains powerful aspects of fantasy and in a fantasy world anything is possible. Specific rules are necessary when dealing with fantasy aspects of a story. This guy said it better than I did
Because Shadowrun is based in an alternate version of the real world, it fills in many of its own blanks. Most people understand enough about computers to understand the matrix, vehicle rules are complex but the vehicles aren't any different from modern vehicles, guns are still guns, and even cyberware has some basis in reality. Magic, on the other hand, is completely different. In te absence of a specific rule, there is nothing stopping anyone from making stuff up. There is no need for realism because magic isn't real. However, in this case the rules are quite specific. The only issue is that some people don't like the rule. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 7 2007, 05:51 AM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Technically, since ignoring the rules is a rule, it can't be cheating. but that's just annoying semantics. No, the reason I like that statement isn't because you can bypass what ever you want on Gm fiat. I like it because it gives you the freedom to make things out of the norm. You can create things that normally wouldn't work. Some of the most spectacular events are from things that break the rules. Examples: AI, leonardo, Quicksilver's deck, Dragons (higher Sorcery rating in SR4 as an example), the original otaku. Now if you don't like those things, then ignore everything I'm saying, it doesn't apply to you, and that's just fine. But for me, as both a player anda GM, I like those things that defy the convention a bit. Spices things up for me. Especially as a player, it gives me a kick to be able to still win when things come out that you don't expect, while still playing by the rule . Kind of an "against the odds" thing. I also am a fan of the occasional exception for players while I'm GMing. Things like the dead man's trigger before there were rules for it, a PC going berserk in an appropriate time, or giving someone a couple of extra dice for a really well described, daredevil type attempt at something. But once again, that may just be me. I like games that break the mold occassionaly. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 7 2007, 07:00 AM
Post
#68
|
|||||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Therefore you should ignore the rule ignoring the rules, if you want to use it at all. If you do not, then it is cheating. :D |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 7 2007, 07:36 AM
Post
#69
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i think there's a difference between things which fall outside the rules, and things which break the rules. AIs fall outside the rules. handwaving the 10-success headshot that the sam hit your NPC with because you wanted to use that NPC later, i would call breaking the rules. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 7 2007, 08:28 AM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I agree. I don't think that 's what the statement is intended for and I'd hit anyone that did this with my BBB. Assuming they're within book-smacking distance of course. Some of the coolest games I've seen where ones where the Big Bad Villian bought it in a very quick and unexpected way. I don't think the "ignore rules" rule should ever be used in a way that totally screws the PCs. Defeats the whole purpose of the game.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 7 2007, 07:29 PM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
cool. just clarifying.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 8 2007, 11:06 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I don't think that using magic "looks like" anything. It doesn't show up on film, and it doesn't go out over the trid phone.
People get a perception test to notice sorcery. But there's no perception test to notice sorcery that has been recorded. People are alive and a little bit in tune with Astral Space whether they are currently astrally perceiving or not. Awakened people, who are more in tune with magic, have a correspondingly easier time detecting its use. But the sense you are detecting it with isn't "sight" or "taste" it's your "living sense" - more like your "empathy". There's no modifier to your chance to notice Sorcery just because you've never seen sorcery in yor whole life - it's instinctual. It's a sense you never use, but as soon as you're confronted with something in it there is no doubt in your mind. If a man casts a Force 6 Manabolt, another man will fall over dead. And every single other person in the room will know who did it. But it won't "look like" anything. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2007, 01:13 AM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Shows the 'Physical Mask/Trid/Entertainment' spells to Frank.
They do show up on film, cameras and other media if the spell is designed for it. Things like Fireball and other indirect combat spells should be the same since they are dealing with real elements that can be caught on video in real life. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2007, 02:09 AM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The effects show up on film yes. But the casting does not. If you use control thoughts to get a man to rob a bank - the bank robbery will show up on film. The arcane lines of domination moving from your aura to the targets won't. When you are a person who happens to be near someone who is casting trid phantasm, you know that they cast a spell. But a man looking at a video camera does not get that knowledge - nor does someone who walks into a room where a phantasm spell is being sustained. Living people are entitled to a perception test any time someone casts a spell within their vicinity to know that they did that. And that test is extremely easy for even moderately powerful magic. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2007, 02:52 AM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Ok, I agree with you there. I think I misread the previous post. My apologies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th April 2022 - 10:45 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.