 California and Liberation from Saito, Where should I be looking? |
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 Mar 9 2007, 07:32 PM
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#26
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Uncle Fisty  Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928  |
Yeah I know the place. There's a good game store called Hastur Cards & Comics just south of Salt Lake (215). They've got some 3rd edt books last I checked, and a lot of everything else.
Also, my old group is in Orem, so there's players there if you're looking. Great game store called Blackfyre in Orem. And there's another called the Dragon's Keep in Provo that has a whole bunch of old second and third edition books at good prices. Bit of a drive for you, but worth it. I lived in the are afor aobut 4 years so I have a good idea of what's arounnd there, including what Used Book stores are worth while for SR stuff. |
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Mar 9 2007, 10:04 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
The only good things that happen in california, in shadowrun are not written. When ever another word about California is written, it is another insult to California. Not only in making it more dystopic, but in it's utter lack of understanding anything in California. |
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Mar 9 2007, 11:05 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756 |
Well, thats not an inflammatory statement at all.
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Mar 9 2007, 11:28 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Seriously... it's fiction; who cares? I'm totally fine with the idea of CalFree and the stuff that has happened to it. Makes it a great safe haven runners who might have a bit (a lot) of heat from say maybe Denver or Seattle. |
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Mar 10 2007, 02:28 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
No, no, it's Layon, Utahns don't pronounce soft "T" sounds. Like mountain is pronounced mounain in Utah. |
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Mar 10 2007, 02:49 AM
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#31
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Oh god, let's please not get into the intricacies (or lack of) of Utahn dialect. I just might cry.
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Mar 10 2007, 02:49 PM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
Yeah, I'm from Alabama - my accent just gets added to the mix. |
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Mar 11 2007, 05:09 PM
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#33
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about the Utah Accent than it does to talk about a Bay Area accent. There are four times as many people in the San Jose - San Francisco - Oakland sprawl than there are in Utah and they are more ethnically diverse.
Utah has an 83.5% White population - that's enough to consider a majority and regard other ethnicities as aberrations or minorities. San Jose, on the other hand, has no majority ethnicity. White people are less than 47 percent of the population - people speaking in different manners, even different languages, is well within the norm. -Frank |
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Mar 12 2007, 11:37 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Just like it they made Nippon males be 90% homosexual. Or turned Texas into a nation state full of nothing but people whoa re white, and kill anything with brown skin on site. Maybe if you took Seattle made it so that it no longer had a port, and everyone in the city really liked having sex with horses. Yes,I know it is only fiction, but it is crappy, shitty and needs to change, or stop. I honestly would be happy if they never published a thing about California. In their track record, they had California say we are kicking out a city that as nation would be as I recall one the 20 richest nations in the world. Because of what some hackers did? WFT? Then that city of oh on the low scale ~17,000,000 merged into a nation that after the merger the nation was only ~9,000,000 people. That is not counting that a it has never stopped being a war, for say 30 years, but never once made a standing army worth talking of? Name one thing SHadowrun Cannon about California that is not just utter bullshit.Name one event that happened in California that was not Deus Ex Machina or kick them California's in the balls for no reason. |
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Jun 9 2007, 04:30 AM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 3-June 07 From: Oakland, CA Member No.: 11,820 |
Hi folks.
This topic greatly interests me, so I'm adding to an old thread. I first want to say that I agree in general with Cynic project's critique of California in the Sixth World: while the initial occupation of San Francisco (and part of Alameda) by the Japanese Imperial State did not strike me as poorly designed, the subsequent invasion of Sacramento and the Central Valley, the apparently bloodless conquest of Los Angeles by the Pueblo Corporate Council, and the map of those parts of Cal Free that were flooded after "the Big One" all strike me wrong. They seem more about ignorance (lack of knowledge) and messing with California for its own sake and less about rigorously imagined fantasies, which I think campaign setting designers should do. In part, as I return to GMing Shadowrun, I think of these canon developments as indicative of a failure to contemplate war adequately. Even in a moment of freakishly important cyberwarfare and magic, moving beyond San Francisco and into Sacramento, let alone the entire San Joaquin Valley would likely be impossible for one errant general with two divisions of marines. If Cal Free guerrillas checked Tir Tairngire for almost thirty years, then surely the government in Sacramento and the town militias throughout the San Joaquin could have stopped, checked, undermined Saito's alleged conquest. These points barely even evoke my critique of the notion that any army could conquer "the Southland." Los Angeles, Orange, and Ventura counties contain an absurdly dense population today. Even after several waves of VITAS and the social upheaval of the Awakening, UGE, Goblinization, and SURGE, the Los Angeles basin must contain an amazing number and concentration of people, and this density would make Los Angeles a place for Aztlan to choke on -- at least as much as the Yucatan. That the PCC was said to have seized LA stretches the suspension of disbelief past the breaking point... Anyhow, my and Cynic project's critiques aside, I want to respond to JanessaVR's initial post. I don't have SOTA 64, which fistandantilus3.0 mentioned, but neither System Failure, nor Runner Havens discusses Cal Free's liberation from Saito's two divisions. However, System Failure describes the explosion of the tac-nuke to the "northeast" (northwest?) of San Francisco, and Shadows of North America evokes disgruntled resistance toward Saito's apparently bloodless conquest of Sacramento (and the entire San Joaquin Valley!). Anyhow, I'd love to hear about the first few months of JanessaVR's campaign, and I will be happy to comment and share ideas. I recently started a SR4 campaign set in the S.F. Bay Area in an undetermined year after the Crash 2.0, and I am presently (re)imagining the fate of Cal Free in the 2060s. |
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Jun 9 2007, 04:44 AM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2-January 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,119 |
Long Beach, CA here.
The CalFree stuff is utter garbage, nothing really worth using. But a lot of the meta-setting in SR is dumb, and I throw out. The whole NAN Indian.. thing.. yeah.. I have lived in the U.S. for over 20 years and have never seen a Amerindian, I have met more people from weird unknown SouthEast Asian countries than Indians. Its hard for me to believe that they took over most of the continental U.S. magic or no magic. |
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Jun 9 2007, 05:23 AM
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#37
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
One thing to consider here is terrain. The area just north of Redding is all mountains, leading up just past Shasta, which is I-5. It would make more sense to come through to the west, through the redwood forests, but the history says they came throughin Redding, which means they came down a 3 lane freeway across a bridge, and past a lot of mountains, into a very hilly area. That's not a very ideal area to move a lot of troops through. Passes are easy to block, hit with artillery assuming it's available, and snipe. The idea of an army sneaking through there invisibly is ..... trying to find the right word here... we'll just go with unfeasable. It's a major freeway that semi trucks move up and down constanty, which bottlenecks at a two lane bridge across Lake Shasta. You can't move down it undetected. It's called a car accident. I know Frank has his pet hates about CalFree in SR. This one's mine. The Tir can't sneak an army in to northern california. Sacramento area however is tons and tons of farmlands, a lot more flat terrain, and a number of freeways.Besides, the Cal goverment was apparently never very good at defending it's self in SR history. Except up north apparently. But of course, the government didn't care about that area. I've always wondered why there's no idependent State of Jefferson in Shadowrun. |
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Jun 9 2007, 07:09 AM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Let's start with the fact that there there are a total of about 10,000 Utes registered with the tribe as of 1999. Which means they are outnumbered by about 680 to 1 by the rest of the citizens of Utah and Colorado. I can clearly see how they could take over the place, can't you? There are other tribes, but have you ever seen mention of the Navajo in SR, despite the fact that there are 570,000 people of Navajo descent in the US? Like I said previously, I think whoever came up with the history was drunk, smoking crack and chewing peyote at the time. |
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Jun 9 2007, 10:51 AM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
there was one cool thing that's happened in SR Cali. when Saito sent troops up to Chico-Oroville and got his ass handed to him by a bunch of runners hired by Ares? that was totally sweet.
incidentally, check my timestamp. i have apparently been cursed by gypsies to never sleep again. exciting! |
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Jun 9 2007, 04:15 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 3-June 07 From: Oakland, CA Member No.: 11,820 |
Hey fistandantilus3.0, I agree with you that the terrain in the Northern Crescent, and especially around Lake Shasta and Redding is ideal for guerrilla warfare.
My point about Saito's canon invasion of Sacramento and the San Joaquin Valley goes to a few other relevant factors. First, although there are several freeways from the Bay Area to Sacramento, the main eastbound one is Interstate-80. A different major route is the 580 to Interstate-5, effectively driving into Stockton (south of Sacramento and roughly mid-way into the San Joaquin Valley). These are the routes for any wheeled military vehicle. While hover, thrust, treaded, and even knobby tired vehicles might take other routes, regular troop transportation would likely be channeled into those two freeways, which provides Cal Free with two places to block Saito frontally and multiple ambush points along the way. Even if Saito somehow blinded Cal Free to his mobilization and blitzkrieged the Sacramento-Stockton sprawl, my second point is that he would have too few troops to hold even even that northern tip of the San Joaquin Valley. To hold central California without losing San Francisco with only a division and a half of ronin Imperial Japanese Marines, Saito would need major Japanacorp support to hold S.F. itself, and his supply line (I-80 and the 580) would have suffered significant, perhaps overwhelming, urban guerrilla warfare in the East Bay -- home to the Metahuman People's Army and October 25 Alliance. Even granting the Japancorp's support to retain S.F. itself, I can't see how Saito could maintain his lines into Sacramento and the San Joaquin. Moreover, the canon in SoNA fails to describe any armed resistance offered by the Cal Free populace in Sacramento itself -- an absurd assertion given the xenophobia and "rugged frontier individualism" presented as canon Cal Free. I think I am starting to repeat myself, so I will end by mentioning that SoNA also expanded Saito's California Protectorate to roll well past its original Neo-Anarchists' Guide to North America limit of San Francisco -- gobbling all of San Mateo and Santa Clara counties (except for "Silicon Valley") and even beyond to Salinas and Monterey! This is way too large a region for one and a half divisions (however many marines are in one division) to take and keep. Even given the general population decrease due to VITAS, the establishment of the NAN, Cal Free's secession, the canon earthquakes, and the Sixth World in general, the sheer size and population density of the Bay Area sprawl would choke Saito's ronin. Finally, the notion that Ares would allow Saito's marines to encircle "Silicon Valley" also breaks credulity. It would be strategic folly, perhaps only permitted in order to then destroy utterly that limited military force by supporting urban guerrillas in the South Bay. |
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Jun 9 2007, 04:26 PM
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#41
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Just a bit, yeah. Here's the timeline of California, as portrayed in Shadowrun sourcebooks (can be found at the fine Has the UCAS fought a war? thread). Note the crazy and contradictions:
So pet peeves? Yeah, just a bit. But sneaking a coupleof armed divisions into California through the Shasta region? I could do that. The key is that the first step is to walk your infantry overland while protected by spiritual concealment. Step two is to send your armored vehicles down Yellow Dog Trail to the Iron Gate Resevoire. Again, you're protected by spiritual concealment, and you've used weather control to cover the entire area in fog. Anyone you meet on the road you murder and dump their body and vehicle into the resevoire. Now you cut through with your vehicles west to cut in South of Hornbrook. cut I-5, the rail-line, and most importantly of all the phone towers (this is the primary job of the infantry you sent hiking into the mountains), and you've essentially stranded whatever border defense the California Guard has up north while you cut south to Redding on the freeway. You're on the freeway with your light armored vehicles and the first of them get sped up with movement from a Force 6 spirit. Bam! From first shot in Hornbrook to rolling up an armored vehicle onto Shasta Street you're 15 minutes in and no phone calls have come through frm the border in the meantime. I mean, it's pretty clear from the descriptions in the Tir book that the author had crazy visions of rolling panzer divisions across the border in an invisible mass to pop out with a blitzkrieg already in progress. That's... absurd. But if you're willing to send your infantry in small groups through the Ardens, you can indeed invade California from the north. It's really hard, but it can be done. -Frank |
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Jun 9 2007, 05:16 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 3-June 07 From: Oakland, CA Member No.: 11,820 |
Thanks for that post Frank. I will review the other thread later this weekend and look forward to sharing here the future history I am imagining for my campaign.
I hope JanessaVR will also post about the first few months of the campaign that started this thread. |
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Jun 9 2007, 05:18 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Very insightful Frank. Any chance you could give us a rewritten version that you would support in preference to cannon? I'd probably use it, and others might too.
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Jun 9 2007, 05:26 PM
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#44
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Assuming that they had no issues with out side parties, and were dealing with just those within the state of Utah, than the answer is Yes, I could see it. One reason: The Mormon Church. Now, again, Im Mormon myself. mabe not a "good" one bcause I don't alwas agree with things the chuch does as a whole. The point however is that the majority in Utah is mormon, and there aren't a lot of organizations within the state that can hold a candle to them. A lot of the government consists of mormons, and especially in SLC, things have a tendency to go the Church's way. Most of the voters are mormon. People come from all over the U.S. just to go to BYU. If the Utes were actually able to get organized around a movement like say SAIM, and had the churche's support, then yes, I could see it happening, as long as they didn't rock the Happy Valley boat too much. And according to NAN1 , that's pretty much what happened. Edit: The big part I don't agree with is that the Church only ogt SLC. They should have gotten everything down to Provo, and likely would have.
Another problem is that to get from SF to Stockton area, he would have to go down Highway 4 past Tracy, which is a crappy two lane highway in the middle of nowhere.
They were apparently able to take Sacramento because the governor and the rest of the government were in their pocket by then. They didnt' ahve to fight for that part. They bribed. At least acording to the books, most of them didn't fight, because most of them weren't bothered. At first. I've always envisioned Cal Free as being like California now, except instead of ethnic diversity, it's meta-diversity. I could be totally wrong on that I suppose. But I have a hard time seeing a state that has entire cities like ORKland and Halferville being that easy for a human supremacist to take. I agree that Saito did seem to have far mre numbers than he should have. The only explanation I have is conscripts. |
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Jun 9 2007, 06:02 PM
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#45
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
One note
Due to the "quality" of the land which LAX is constructed on, ie landfill etc. The runways there "sink" over time, so more runway needs to be built over old. Check your history records, in earthquakes, what happens to things constructed on cheap, shoddy landfill? That is how LAX can be destroyed. WMS |
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Jun 10 2007, 08:40 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 3-June 07 From: Oakland, CA Member No.: 11,820 |
I agree with HappyDaze that it would be nice to hear Frank share his vision for Cal Free. I visited Sacramento yesterday, driving I-80 from Oakland and imagining all the points of potential ambush, especially the Carquinez Bridge, which would stop all ground traffic that went directly to Sacramento. fistandantilus3.0 commented, "They were apparently able to take Sacramento because the governor and the rest of the government were in their pocket by then. They didnt' ahve to fight for that part. They bribed. At least acording to the books, most of them didn't fight, because most of them weren't bothered." Some of SoNA supports that interpretation, but again, since the Japanese Imperial State's occupation of S.F. and Alameda, surely Cal Free established some nearby military base? Even if the governor and other politicians had been bought, I think whatever standing army and / or militias in the way would have responded. Back to my drive yesterday, I think that Richmond, with its old oil refineries, or perhaps the east side of the Carquinez Strait, with its nearby merchant marine school would be likely places for a Cal Free military base that was established in reaction to the Japanese Imperial State. Also, the old U.S.A. Moffett Federal Air Field would be another likely place for Cal Free to have established a military base. Fistandantilus3.0 mentioned Highway 4, which the 205 has "replaced." It cuts between the 580, bounding the north side of Tracy, and goes to I-5. Of course many things could / should change from now to 2070, and new routes may well be reasonably imagined. For example, the Neo-Anarchist Guide's "Butterfly Bridge" seemed fine. Anyhow, away from nitpicking ground routes, I also imagined what the ronin marine division might do to outmaneuver Cal Free's standing bases, aiming for a lightning strike against the governor in Sacramento, which would give him (and other bribed officials) the face-saving facts to hide their treachery behind necessary surrender and negotiation of terms. Trying to salvage / rationalize the Saito Protectorate, I imagined that his gambit was to conquer Cal Free and thereby force the Japanese Imperial State to recognize his great contribution to the empire. Ronin marines in t-birds and/or helicopters could hit Sacramento very fast, ignoring Cal Free's base at the Carquinez Strait and occurring so fast that East and South Bay resistance might not matter. What do you think? |
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Jun 11 2007, 12:20 AM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Once you go rogue you lose your logistics. So you won't get any spare parts for your imperial AFVs, helos, etc. Given that a company can choose to continue to get several multi-tens of billion/year nuyen contracts from the Imperial military or they can support Saito and instead spend several billion a year on a military adventure, have Aries be the new Imperial military supplier, and likely get assassinated by "young army officers", which would you choose? |
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Jun 11 2007, 10:00 PM
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#48
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Speaking as a Californian transplanted to Seattle, I support the use of hella.
That is all. |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:41 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I'm from California and I transplanted myself to Utah 3 years ago. I am Mormon and active (meaning I actually go to church and try to do my best to live it's teachings). That being said. SR canon has totally screwed up 2 things that I identify myself with. First of all, even before Saito brought up in SR, California was written as being full of a bunch of racist bigots. California is very tolerant. Granted I'm sure there are some people that would have the "I don't like those metas" attitude, but Sacramento and the Bay area would not be those places. Saito is just silly. Since I'm not moving to SR4, in 2065, CalFree is going to be in horrible turmoil and chaos. Then the UCAS is going to move in and kick everyone else out. Hello, New Revolution? That's what I thought was happening in the beginning anyway. Another complaint (This seems to be the place) I hate how the UCAS is a bunch of wimps. I mean, if Quebec was absorbed I could understand, but Canadians aren't THAT bad. Maybe it's all those East Coast whiner babies. The LDS (Mormon) church would not support a bunch of American Indian terrorists. I've pretty much left my religion out of my game. However, I agree with fistandantilus3.0, the church would've gotten Provo too. And one question I have to ask is: What about all the land that the church owns around the world? At least the temple grounds in the US, did they keep those too? |
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Jun 12 2007, 09:06 PM
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#50
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
One Hundred and Eleven years ago the LDS church bent over and compromised its religious beliefs in the name of political expedience and it has been the government's butt-whore ever since. Only a few highly marginalized splinter-churches were actually willing to stick to their guns and defy the government's immoral laws. But, I could certainly see a charismatic fundamentalist rising up and seizing an opportunity to take the LDS church back to its roots and remove it from under the thumb of the corrupt and evil US government.
SAIM isn't a bunch of terrorists. SAIM is a group of freedom fighters seeking to reclaim occupied territory. They're no different from the brave Frenchman who blew up Nazi occupiers during WWII. By all rights, the entire continent should belong to their nations instead of the occupying colonial powers. And looking at it from that point of view their cause is as right and as just as the opposition to Hitler. In fact, when you compare US and Canadian treatment of Native Americans to Nazi treatment of the Jews, Hitler comes off looking like a great humanitarian. At the time, the Native Americans were really the only organized groups in the US to have any real magical power. The Wiccans, Satanists, Vouduns, and Santarians had some, but most of their rituals and spells were diluted diring the downcycle. The Native Americans, however, learned their magic directly from Thais, an absurdly powerful Immortal Elf/Horror hybrid who could freely practice magic in the downcycle because he was so absurdly powerful. This gave them an extreme advantage over any and all magical forces that the US might have been able to muster. It doesn't take a genius to see who the winning side would be in the battle of modern arms vs. ancient doomsday magic. The fact that SAIM was going to leave them be and allow them to practice their faith any way they want, allowing for the return of mainstream official legal polygamy certainly wouldn't have hurt matters. |
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