Copying Matrix program from a node?, Good point, but may be game breaking Options

[Jérémie]

Could a Matrix user (a hacker hacking it, or someone with the right security login or even admin login) copy a program a node is running?

I can't find any reasons that wouldn't be possible, but it may be a game breaker... a PC hacker could obtain most ICE for free, and so on. So ok, most of the time without the source code, but you don't always need it.

Any thoughts on that? I missed something in the book?

Edit: by the way, I'm looking for the most canonical answers, thoughts, tips. If you have a strong personal view on this, ok, but please state it as your own, and not the SR4 dev's one.

[DireRadiant]

There's no mechanic in the rules for "copying" a program as you envision. e.g. copy the executing program file from one node to another. It would be best not to think to closely in present day terms for this.

You can "hack" a node, which presumably allow you to download the program from that node to your commlink. But then you'd probably still need to crack the program to run it. See p. 228 Source Code and Piracy.

[mfb]

the Matrix is weird enough that if the book doesn't specifically say you can do something, you might be better off assuming you can't do it. in the case of copying a running program, i would definitely say no because of the way WMI storage works; just because a program is running on a node doesn't mean it's stored there.

[dionysus]

I look at it this way: if I hack into someone's thin client, I can watch things happen there (certain memory accesses, there's got to be some kind of processing, and maybe even some programs stored locally, but they're unlikely to be interesting), and I can even interfere with the flow of execution (crash programs, run my own, etc). I can also snoop how the client authenticates itself, but I can't actually get at binary images of programs.

For example, lets say I'm using my laptop running a long compile over an ssh session on my desktop. You break into my laptop for whatever reason. You can see the network traffic of the ssh session, and you could strip the ssh client from my laptop (clearly, you're already beyond needing a free ssh client!), but you couldn't get the source of the program I was compiling, or the compiler off of my desktop.

It's not a great analogy, I know, since the compiler isn't actually affecting my laptop's system, whereas hostile ICE would need to be resident in memory in the node where it's attacking you (probably), but it's close, I think. Hopefully it made some kind of sense... :|

It's just fluff anyway, rule-wise I would agree with mfb.

[Jaid]

i would assume you can't copy or otherwise modify a running program (other than by affecting the input it receives). i would further assume that you could only copy a program if it is possible to copy it normally (ie copy protection is cracked, or you're looking at the version without copy protection from which all the other copies are made).

in a game where i am running things, i would personally rule that most legitimate programs are coded into hardware, and that breaking the copy protection lets you make one copy onto appropriate hardware (this would have some minimal cost, subsumed in the cost of the software toolkit/shop/facility that most people ignore needing, plus lifestyle in most situations... maybe more for some programs). in my model, therefore, you would not be able to move the program, and could only copy it by breaking copy protection (if any) and creating a single copy of the program (which you could then copy at your leisure). my assumption of hardware based copy protection is largely a result of the fact that software based copy protection appears to do a whole lot of nothing, these days.

that being said, AFAICT, the rules have nothing in them to prevent a player from swiping any program a given node may be running, other than copy protection (which would only prevent copying, and would do nothing to prevent simply actually taking the program itself rather than creating a copy, AFAICT).

[Jérémie]

Nice to see I wasn't the only one disturbed by that when my player asked this question ;)

Thanks for the various pointers on why this wouldn't be possible.

Next step: find a Unwired writer, and hammer that issue into his brain until it bleed :dead:

[Mistwalker]

[Jérémie]

Nope, my point is on the contrary to get things like that covered before the book is finished.

That point precisely won't delay the book, all the "small but important things" may or may not, depending on how well the dev team work. But I would rather have a good book 2 month later than a bad one sooner.

[Mistwalker]

Ah, I misunderstood what you wanted.

I thought you were just threatning general mayem and physical violence on the writers.

I agree with you that if they can cover the small points, it would be nice for them to do so, and yes, I too would rather wait a little more and get a superior product.

Personally, I am hoping that they will have detailed examples of how hacking is done, either in the book itself, or on the SR website as a download.

[sunnyside]

Yeah hacking needs a lot of elaboration and a lot of solid examples of how it shoud work.

As for copying a program you have to be where the code is resident. That need not always be the case. It probably is for basic IC. But if a corp has a hot new model they may very well run it on a seperate system and have it travel to the main server like an agent.

Another thing, and I forget if SR4 stresses this, but corp programs/hardware tend to bleed an electronic trail. This wouldn't be removed when breaking copy protection as it's a feature of the program as opposed to a copy protection issue (for example you can have perfectly emulated the host system, but as always the program leaves a trail or at the least occasionlly sends a little message off to the home corp.). And who knows what other kind of shenanigans may be present in corp code.

[laughingowl]

Yes though harder then you would think.

Hacker would need to hack the node in question. n effect the hacker is now root user (would need to be root IMO).

Hacker can not start making his cracking rolls to bypass the copy protection on an programs stored in this node.

Once/IF hacker suceeds he can make a copy (I require the copy protection roll to be made for each copy, NOT once broken it is broken (more forcing a one-to-one copy the re-writting code to defeat copy protection).

The catch is hacker is going to be staying in the 'hacked' node for quite a while.

interval 1 hours sucess 10 -20 (personally I go 4 times rating since to me better programs are generally going to have tighter copy protection).

Hackers, system alerts, IC, etc are going to have a long time to notice you in the node and you cant copy the program until/unless you defeat the copy protection. and you going to have to do alot of back scrubbing to clear out all those logs of being on the system for several hours to eleminate the data trail.

[Jérémie]

To play devil's advocate, a admin-user (root) should be able to do pretty much he wants. And on this, he certainly would be able to copy or move a program from a node to another.

Yup, maybe the program has embedded protection and will check if this is a legal or friendly node, that would require some work, some test, whatever.

But it's not difficult, with time, to get an admin account of a somewhat important node. And it shouldn't be more difficult to create a "false legal node" than to hack in a corporate research node or whatever.

[ShadowDragon8685]

May I propose a soloution that meshes well with Knasser's views on how the Matrix works?

You can forcibly copy something like ICE, but only if you defeat it in cybercombat first, and by so doing shut it down into a dormant state. Then the Wireless Matrix architecture will allow it to be transfered. If you try to just copy a running program protecting a node, it will not allow itself to leave, and as it's a running program, the Matrix will automatically nuke your copy, because it will read as a self-replicating virus.

[WhiskeyMac]

Hate to use this analogy but kinda like capturing Pokemon with a Poke-Ball. Gotta defeat it in combat so it's weak enough to capture. I choose you Pikachu!!!

[ShadowDragon8685]

[bait]

I wouldn't trust the copied version of an ICE, as it most likely would still treat you as a hostile. ( Besides the ICE isn't really worth much if you managed to actually copy it.)

[sunnyside]

Yeah copying an ICE is probably quite different from copying an attack program. The program that runs it may very well not be able to totally adapt it to it's new situation.

[laughingowl]