Infirm Flaw, Most Abuseable Flaw Options

[Sphynx]

Ok, after careful consideration of past character growths, and karma expenditures, mixed with the recent poll that only a rare character gets past 50 karma... I've decided that Infirm is by far the most exploitable flaw.

Unless you max an attribute at char gen past the racial modified limit, you're probably never going to raise an attribute past the modified limit. This means, you can take the 3 point infirm and not suffer at all from it (notice, this flaw caps Maximum, not Modified Racial).

I noticed this today while perusing our group's Shaman who's an Albino Gnome with Exceptional Attribute: Willpower (lotsa those in Seattle, eh?). He has 5 levels of this flaw and a Body of 6. :P Ok, so he can only ever have a Quickness over 4, but he's never going to be interested in raising it above that score anyhows.

5 point flaw as a dwarf and still gets to have a 6 in Body and Strength as a starting character. Man... why didn't I think of that?

Ok, done Ranting about the flaw, I'll just note down to take it if I ever make a new character instead of flaws that actually hinder me. :P

PS... Yes, I realize that if a flaw doesn't hinder you shouldn't get points for it.

Sphynx

[Shockwave_IIc]

I agree its very open to abuse. Which is why the only time i've taken it i made it limit my stats to 242.

But as the Gm you have the right to say no.

[Siege]

Technically, any flaw can be abused or "blunted" so it doesn't cut as deeply.

The edges/flaws section is interesting but has a "half-finished" feel to it (IMHO).

-Siege

[spotlite]

I dunno, I've never really had any characters abuse their flaws, but then most of ours tend to take flaws that have an ongoing affect anyway, which can bite them in the ass, like phobias and allergies (mainly pollutant allergies - and I make them pay for that one, beleive me, but they keep taking it because its likely. Mostly it sets off their asthma mid run...)

The infirm flaw does indeed look bad. But when they want to augment themselves remember bioware can only take you to your attribute Max, not over it. And make them have a good backstory you can exploit as to why, as well - it says that it represents their deteriorating physical condition, such as couch potato mages or deckers not necessarily age or illness. Well, if they don't lie around doing nothing, or abuse themselves with drugs and gluttony, then they don't really have this flaw, do they? Or they actually are old or sick - either of which can have other penalties or side effects.

And if they change their lifestyle so the condition causing the flaw goes away, remove the flaw! But remember that if you do that you're supposed to replace it with one or more with a total comparable value. A 5 point flaw you say...? Well, lets take a look and see what fits... I defy you not to find at least half a dozen suitable flaws which could've been brought on by roleplay encounters - maybe they now suffer a debilitating fear of devil rats after that run in the sewers last week? Or a combination of devil rat phobia and claustraphobia? Two for the price of one!

Mmmm... greedy players... better than donuts...

[Elfie]

I don't see anything not feasible about taking the infirm flaw as a human. My decker has Infirm -2, which makes it so My physical attributes max out at 4. If 3 is supposed to be 'average' then I don't see this as being an abused flaw if it fits the character. Sure I'm never going to be a world class powerlifter or world record sprinter, so 4 seems like a decent number for a decker in physical stats. I don't think it's as bad as people who take a Charisma of 1 if they're just being the muscle of the group...

[Shockwave_IIc]

You might want to reread the flaw Elfie,

It effects your attribute max's not the race max's so as a human you have a race max of 6 with attirbute max of 7

[edit]
The only time it effects the race max is if the Attribute max is lower than the race max, example

a character with the stats of 4(6) due to being an Otaku with a lvl 4 infirm flaw ends up with this 2(2)

Note you don't need to be Otaku for this to happen, it just makes easier to see how it happens[/edit]

[Kagetenshi]

If your runners don't make much use of bioware, then yes, it's abuseable. Personally, in my experience unless they're going the cyberware route people tend to start loading up on muscle toners and suchlike once they get the nuyen to spare.
Sensitive Neural Structure, now there's an abuseable flaw...

~J

[Shockwave_IIc]

Again only if your not a Decker, Rigger or Otaku. Which granted is like the least common types of characters but hey it's another reason Why Gm's need a good back bone. There are a couple of others out there Day job as an example, I see it more of a merit than a flaw, more so at the lower levels.

[Sphynx]

Or if you're any magic user, especially a dwarven one who can take 5 levels of that flaw and suffer only a reduced Quickness from it. So, pretty much over half the possible character types could take multiple levels of this without it ever effecting their character's advancement plan.

Sphynx

[Shockwave_IIc]

Sphynx i was refering to Sensitive Neural Structure, but your agrument is true for infirm.

[Kagetenshi]

Riggers, deckers, and Otaku have in my experience often been the ones most interested in physical attribute-enhancing bioware. Patch up a massive weakness without having to spend any karma on it? Sounds good! Admittedly an Otaku who doesn't plan to spend any karma on physical attributes can take a single point of the flaw for free, as the max level of toners/etc. is 4, but a single build point seems like a fairly minor problem, given that you get two points for a minor uncommon allergy.

~J

edit: Shockwave, I see what you mean, and you've got a point.

[El_Machinae]

Spotlite, that's a pretty good idea. If the characters stop acting like they're infirm, or if they stop living an infirm life-style, then saddle them with another flaw. I like it.

[The Jopp]

One solution to the problem could be to make the flaw a “flaw” instead of a bonus point. A normal metahuman “human” attribute maximum would be 6+3 if they have a -3 Infirm flaw it would become 6+0. Here’s the solution. Normally a character is allowed to begin the game with up to 6+ racial modifiers to their attributes or modified by bio/cyber. Whenever they have an infirm flaw they also lower their Racial Modified Limit and therefore CANNOT begin with the game with an attribute of 6 AND have a 3 point flaw. The flaw will instead lower BOTH the Attribute Maximum and Racial Modified Limit.

A character with a 3 point flaw would have an Attribute Maximum of 3+3 (6) and the Racial Modified Limit would become 3. A character with a5 point flaw would have an max of 1+3 (4) and cannot begin the game with a higher attribute than 1. Thus the character cannot begin by maxing out his attribute and take the flaw.

Is this logical or am I waffling? :|

EDIT: Say, can Otaku with physical attributes of 1 take this flaw at all?

[DigitalMage]

I have to say I have always read the flaw as limiting the racial modified limit (or whatever it is called) i.e. with -3 Infirm flaw a character cannot have an attribute above 3.

However I have never used the rules that allow a character to go above the 6 + racial modifiers. To me that was always a silly thing to do, they set up in 1st Edition a range of human maximums i.e. 1 to 6 and base teh game around that, then they go and extend that range to 1 to 9 without changing other stuff.

IMHO The Exceptional Attribute edge should be the only way to go above 6 for a human.

Maybe to rectify the flaw have Infirm effectively reduce the racial and attribute max, e.g. Human without flaw can increase attribute up to 6 points, after that they may be more Karma and increase to 9.

With a -2 Infirm Flaw thsi changes to 4/6.

[Sphynx]

Oddly enough DigiMage, despite being in a 200+ karma game, I've never once seen anyone want to take an attribute above the Racial Modified Limit, except with Bioware. It's just too expensive. So there was no need to change the other-stuff when allowing players to exceed racial limits.

Anyhows..... tons of way to House Rule it, but for those of you who like to find abuseable flaws... this is one nice one to get away with. ;)

Personally, if I House Rule it, I'm going to keep it around, and reduce the MaxAttribute by 2 for every level taken instead of by 1.

Sphynx

[Lilt]

By the rules; this flaw can give a no-disadvantage bonus to non-combat characters.

Then-again: sensitive neural structure or bio-rejection give bonuses to characters who will never take cyber/bioware, and in theory a non-combat character could take Total Pacifist and get 5 points for it. Broken or what?

OK: all of the above limit the character in certan ways, with infirm being a slightly better tradeoff in most cases, but -1 point per rank against racially modified limit is a terrible tradeoff. Maybe having a set of -1 point flaws that perform the opposite effects of the exceptional attribute edges?

[Kagetenshi]

[The Jopp]

[Kagetenshi]

They aren't dead, they're just in a coma, IIRC.

~J

[tisoz]

Can a shapeshifter take this flaw for each set of physical stats?

[Kurukami]

[Shockwave_IIc]

Actually Kurukami you round up you attributes max's so its 11-5 =6 so it's legal to the letter of the flaw, Tho i do agree on them being a bit munchkin

[Sphynx]

P 245 of the BBB (SR3) Max is 11 Body/Strength for a Gnome. 11-5 = 6. They round Up for Max's.

And yes, the flaw is worth way too many points. :P Hence the thread ;)

Sphynx

[Kagetenshi]

No, it really isn't, especially when you consider the last phase of character creation: GM approval. If the flaw isn't making the character flawed, you slap the player, burn the sheet, and wait for their next character.
Someone going to claim that a max quickness of 4 isn't pretty damaging?

~J

[Kurukami]

For a shaman who's probably got mostly magical skills, armor spells, and a sustaining focus to support his "increased reflexes" spell? No. Not that damaging.

*sfft* *sfft* Damned cheap lighter... now how'm I going to incinerate said player's sheet? :vegm: