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 Infirm Flaw, Most Abuseable Flaw |
 Nov 4 2003, 05:23 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304  |
So many people seem to interpret statements based on what makes for the best power gaming.
The flaw is obviously affecting the maximum stat you can start with. Otherwise it would be useless and stupid. The only way you can see it otherwise is if you think path of the mage phys-ads should get two stinking points of magic every time they initiate. |
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Nov 4 2003, 05:35 PM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Which is why it expressly says it subtracts from the racial max rather than the racial modified limit. :please: ~J |
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Nov 4 2003, 05:43 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
While others prefer to talk out of their ass, speaking in total ignorance of the subject matter. |
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Nov 4 2003, 05:47 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
I think it is just a case of 2nd edition wording getting screwed up by a terminology change for third edition.
2nd didnt have all this 'racial modified limit' 'attribute maximum' stuff did it? I think maximum was just the maximum for your race (ie 6 for humans) and there was no second limit to worry about. So the flaw was written for 2nd edition and when they converted the companion for third they failed to change the word leaving a loophole for munchkins. It is a minor error. |
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Nov 4 2003, 05:49 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
If it's a typo, why do they go out of their way to include mechanics based around the new limits? It's rather specific in stating what it reduces and how this affects the other limit. It's designed to work the way it does, and while it might be a big munchkin loophole, that's where the GM's approval comes in.
[edit]Rather, while you can go out of your way to claim it shouldn't work the way it says it works, it is pretty clearly intentional that it works that way.[/edit] |
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Nov 4 2003, 05:51 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Ok for those who still don't get it.
So quite clearly put Attribute Maximum is the higher of the 2 scores.
Sorry but it seems pretty difinative to me. But like most things it's stupid and useless if take by the "wrong" character. A single phys stat reduced to a max of 4 not being a bad thing? no it's not a bad thing. It becomes hurting when combined with other equally restricted and low phys stats. |
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Nov 4 2003, 06:03 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Do I know you? Did I insult you? While you may have felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't an attack on you. I'd appreciate the same courtesy. |
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Nov 4 2003, 06:09 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
I agree with ShockwaveIIc. Its pretty clear - it does it to ALL physical attributes. And that really can be a problem if they take too many levels of it.
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Nov 4 2003, 06:12 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Spotlite
Must be something about being british ;) |
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Nov 4 2003, 06:55 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I actually re-read it, and it's pretty clear. Silly, but clear. Seriously, how much is limiting your deckers max stats to 6 really worth? It gets you the same amount of points as having +3 to all target numbers for all social skills, or having a 40 hour a week day job.
Anyway, as written it's not really a usable flaw, and I'm glad none of my players have tried to sneak it by me. Although one tried to get sea madness past me :eek: |
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Nov 4 2003, 07:15 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
More importantly, while I show an extreme (dwarf with -5 and str/bod cap of 6 with a qui cap of 4), it is the EASIEST 3-point flaw to take. How many people take their stats up post-character-creation beyond their Modified Limit? In our 9-group, 200+ karma game, not a single person has done that. It's just too damn expensive. So, regardless of the character you make, unless youstarting with Bioware that helps you exceed your Modified Limit in a Physical stat, it's a free 3BP to 90% of the characters.
Sphynx |
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Nov 4 2003, 08:13 PM
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#37
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then it's a game-to-game thing. We almost never see physical stats taken past RML, but bioware augmentation past that is very frequent.
~J |
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Nov 4 2003, 10:11 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
While you may have felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't an attack on you. Just a general comment about the forums in general.
As far as I know, Infirm has long been known by a harmless flaw; your discovery is anything but groundbreaking. But it's no different than several of the other pointless flaws like Vindictive or a non-cybered mage taking Jack Itch or Simsense Vertigo. If you just don't feel like house ruling a solution for them or cutting them out of your game completely, there's not much else you can do. Personally, if it ever came up I'd house rule it so that it affected your Racial Modified Limit (and thus your Attribute Max indirectly) instead. Why they did it the way they did it is completely baffling, but there's no point trying to prove how worthless it is when it's so blatantly obvious. :) |
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Nov 4 2003, 10:17 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Are you playing the same vindictive flaw as I am? that's a REALLY bad one to have. The number of teams I've run that've gotten themselves in real trouble because one character has hatched an elaborate and risky plan to get vengeance on someone is at a 100% hit ratio at one time or other. Its not just the people you fight, its everyone who wrongs you, from the traffic cop who gives you a ticket to the ganger who gives you lip down the local sim parlour. And what about the johnsons who screw you over? "that slag's got it coming...." I agree with the other stuff you said, but I think I have to disagree with you just on that one admittedly very minor point. :) |
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Nov 4 2003, 10:43 PM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
To tweak this discussion:
How would you modify the "day job" flaw and still keep it a legitimate flaw? -Siege |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:01 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
fire them when they don't meet commitments and have lots of time off sick to get healed and so on.
Give them an IRS audit (hey, they have a SIN and pay taxes, right?), Make them come up with a background story and then slap them with it at every opportunity. Have someone at work follow him around stalker style and make them paranoid Have a cop wander into their place of work on other business (stopping off for lunch, investigating a crime whatever) and recognise them from an APB Have the firm approach them for a job which they can't pay for because the firm's going under. They've found out somehow or suspect they can do 'shady' things and want them to do x so that the firm can stay open and the runner can keep his job. Just some ideas. Remember if a player loses a flaw they are supposed to take a similarly valued one. Just rack em up something relevant and carry on using it, like you should do with all your player's flaws. If they wanna take 'em, they have to pay for 'em. The point is it doesn't need editing really. Just creative management! ;) |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:07 PM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Day job? Leave it as-is but just impose the reality of it. What if the team gets offered a sweet job out of town? What if the PC has to lay low for a bit? Enforce a 9-5 type schedule on the character, etc, and make it strict. If the PC gets fired, he has to buy off the flaw for level x 10 karma, after all. Or the GM gets to stick him with a different flaw of an equal value of his choosing. It's no easy task...
That said, I'd probably break the flaw into two parts, one an edge and the other a flaw. The time commitment is a flaw, of course, and the income is an edge. Something like: Time Constraints The character has to be somewhere for a set amount of time per week. The amount of time is determined by the value of the flaw. -2 points = 10 hours/week -4 points = 20 hours/week -6 points = 40 hours/week Steady Income The character has a steady income from a legit source. This may be an inheretence or a part time job. 1 point = 1000 :nuyen: /month 2 points = 2500 :nuyen: /month 3 points = 5000 :nuyen: /month |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:08 PM
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#43
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
What if it's a part-time gig or something under the table?
-Siege Edit: Given the massive amounts of SINless, basically little more than illegals today, such jobs wouldn't be uncommon. And let's face it: with an APB out on you, if you get busted flipping burgers you _deserve_ to get caught. |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:12 PM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I thought of that but didn't want to bother with adding in the modifiers. If the work is part time, probably halve the point gain from the flaw. If the money is illicit, subtract a point from the edge. That means you can get 1000 :nuyen: for 0 points if it's from an illegal source... but keep in mind that you're vulnerable because of it. What happens when the Star comes looking for you because of it? Is it worth 1000 :nuyen: a month?
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Nov 4 2003, 11:15 PM
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#45
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Vindictive is a pain in the ass to take, play in a real game. JackItch and Simsense Vertigo are easy to disallow because of a lack of cyberware. You can only take flaws that can hinder you. Infirm 'can' hinder anyone. It's just less likely, but a GM can't hide behind a 'you aren't flawed by it' because he doesn't know how you'd like to advance. He can only House Rule something because it's potentially abuseable. Lastly, it is groundbreaking for me (who thought it was modified limit) and obviously if you read the thread, by alot of other people on this forum, so be a bit less condescending. Sphynx |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:21 PM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Part time jobs runners wouldn't be caught alive doing:
Stripping bouncer freelance muscle PI (much harder to pull off and requires a certain legal presence) dealer (drugs, BTLs) freelance cutter (Biotech) freelance gear freak (B/R skills) courier day laborer Entertainment labor (unloading trucks, moving gear, setting up stages and so on) The only real drawback that I could think of: if the character doesn't put the time against the job, no paycheck for the month. And the more time missed, the greater the chance of not getting another call later since a lot of these jobs require a certain amount of presence. Although the GM has complete license to add complications from work which can make for great blue-book material. -Siege |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:25 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
Your words would have had a lot more impact if not for your initial sentence. I just find this thread humorous because you've mentioned it a few times in the past on the older boards, yet act as if it was a marvelous discovery of yours just now. What can I say, I loathe that kind of mentality. If it's so "easy to disallow" certain flaws, I don't see why you have an apparent mental block in disallowing others. If you don't want to do it and just whine about how broken it is, that's certainly your perogative, though. In any case, regarding Day Job, the problem with that one is that it's a "flaw" that actually gives benefits. The best way to fix it in my opinion is to turn it into a non-valued Edge (each level is self-balancing; more hours worked, more free money). This way, you don't really have to worry about enforcing it too much as long as they put in the effort to keep up their required hours, and it's still limiting because it would could as an Edge, thus limiting the number of other Edges (five max) you can take. Edit: And I still stand by my comment about Vindicitve as far as the rules mechanics are concerned. Yes, a good GM can and will use it as the flaw it is, but by the rules themselves, it's a "free" two point "Flaw." The same logic you're using to say that it's a "real" Flaw can be used for any other flaws, Infirm and Day Job included. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you're going to use GM judgement for solving one of them, you have to accept it for the other, too. This post has been edited by The Frumious Bandersnatch: Nov 4 2003, 11:39 PM |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:38 PM
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#48
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I leave Day Job as it is, but for anything more than the one-point flaw I enforce a strict schedule. 1-point Day Job can be odd hours at a bar or something, but that still does nasty things to long-term runs or runs out-of-city; with two and over, there are some times when you simply can not run unless you want to lose your job and face the wrath of the GM. Day Job is only broken if the GM is too lazy to enforce it (as I have been on occasion, I admit, but that doesn't mean it isn't easy to enforce).
~J |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:45 PM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I'll give you that one: it would be pretty tough to fly-by-night anything more than 1k a month.
Although it's not impossible: a rigger who free-lances on the side could probably manage that kind of money. A motivated car thief might, although I don't know what the pay scale is for chopping hot cars. Deckers hacking smaller businesses is another possibility. A covert ops specialist who breaks into warehouses and steals high-end electronics has potential... Although the GM would have to make a chart for "nasty, unexpected stuff happens". It would really suck if a rigger lost his tricked car/van/chopper for a measly 5k. :grinbig: -Siege |
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Nov 4 2003, 11:47 PM
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#50
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
The GM is, and always will be, the final call on all characters. They get to look over 'ware, toys, Edges, and Flaws. If they don't like the fact that they took "Infirm" and they know it won't be enforced, they can simply tell the player to pick a different Flaw. Either the player does so or doesn't play.
Game mechanics are only broken if you let them be. |
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