 Infirm Flaw, Most Abuseable Flaw |
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 Nov 4 2003, 11:51 PM
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#51
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
My rule of thumb as a GM: if a flaw isn't going to be a flaw then don't pick it.
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Nov 4 2003, 11:52 PM
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#52
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
There are far more flaws than not that fit into this specification. If the GM doesn't bother to enforce the flaws, a LOT of flaws are free points, including: Incompetence Computer Illiterate Allergy Color Blind Infirm Amnesia Flashbacks Phobia Sea Legs Sea Madness Sensitive Neural Structure Simsense Vertigo Vindictive Braggart Dark Secret Day Job Dependant Distinctive Style Extra Enemy Spirit Bane Jack Itch Gremlins Hunted Mysterious Cyberware That's 24 of 56 flaws which require some GM effort to make them anything other than free points. I don't count Infirm on the list since it gives a solid mechanical penalty. Just because the PC lives around it and never really encounters a problem from it, he is limiting his potential character growth options, which is never a good thing. |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:06 AM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Oh I'm sorry, I assumed that since you quoted me, you were speaking to me. It appears that you also think it's a silly rule and you're just arguing here for some much needed social interaction. Don't let me interrupt you. Have a nice day :) |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:11 AM
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#54
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Know what a fun Flaw is? Amnesia -5. The GM gets to make you up, all you get is a basic history that you can't do anything with. <3
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Nov 5 2003, 12:14 AM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
Nah, I was just making a similarly "insightful" comment about discussions in general as you were, mon ami, hence referencing your post. But again, if you took it as a personal attack, there's not much I can do to help out there other than to offer my most sincere and humble apologies.
Considering your first post in the thread was simply berating the people discussing the rule because you had no idea what the problem was, you're about in the same league as you seem to suggest I am. Sure, I've made a few gruff comments looking back myself, but at least I've tried to offer some alternative solutions to the perceived (and understood) problems. But hey, don't let me interupt you and your own holier-than-thou berating and insult-taking. Have a nice day. :) |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:18 AM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
Actually, I've found that flaw to be a useful tool for introducing totally virgin gamers to Shadowrun. You know, the type that've never even heard of a roleplaying game, let alone Shadowrun, but who are eager to play after having heard how much fun it is. :) The GM can basically just create a reasonable character and hand them the rough story, then deal with all the mechanics on their own for the first game or two until the player gets the hang of what gaming is like. After that, you can come up with some excuse for how the player regained (some?) of their memories, and slowly start introducing the rules to them in a controlled and semi-believable fashion within the context of the game itself. Now if some soddin' lazy experienced player tried to pull it, I'd whack him or her with a wiffleball bat. :D But then again, I don't expect those types of players to waste points on Common Sense either. |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:19 AM
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#57
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Don't forget Flashbacks too! If your GM lets you: Have them triggered by tapdancing mongooses.
It's also fun to make a character who is a Claustraphobe+Agoraphobe... He's disconcerted in anything but rooms that are exactly the right size. |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:24 AM
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#58
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
And thus is born the Kiddie Funtime Tapdancing Mongoose Hour! The funnest fun show on the trid. It's always playing in storefront windows, no matter the time of the night! Even hardened goons like to watch it during their shifts as security guards and thugs! Heh :) |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:27 AM
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#59
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
TinkerGnome if thats what you do to make flaws, well flaws then i want to play in one of your games!!
Sounds like fun!! |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:34 AM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Just to clarify, that's not something I would do for flaws normally. However, someone who comes to you with a flashback flaw with a trigger like that deserves whatever they get. Hell, it'd probably even be worth bonus karma to them most games just to have the comedic factor hanging around.
Player with flaw: I sneak up on the guard and put him in a choke hold to quietly put him out. GM: As you sneak up on the guard, your spine tingles. He's wearing earphones and you think to yourself, "Ah, stupid guard... you've made this too easy." Your arm closes around his neck and you start to apply pressure. To your horror, the ear phone is knocked loose and you hear that all too familiar song... "We are the happy funtime tapdancing mongooses!" His small color television comes clearly into view before you can look away. Roll me that Willpower (6) test. |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:35 AM
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#61
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I have had experienced players take full amnesia, but I don't even hand them a character sheet, I hand them a blank one and fill in skills as appropriate. Give him a severe phobia of doctors as a sammy so he COULDN'T go get a scan to see what cyber/bio he had :D Great fun! ;)
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Nov 5 2003, 12:41 AM
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#62
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
For some reason when i read this the tune to Happy Tree Friends popped in my head. argg flashbacks!! Hmm, Eye candy and Mr Flippy |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:42 AM
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#63
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
That's the point of Amnesia -5, to totally surprise the player. Give them a base description of what they are, but no attributes or skills, let alone any history.
Hey, wait, suddenly, they're under attack! Time to use that handy Predator III that's hanging under your jacket! Whoa, wait, you just cracked that Troll in the head and gave him an M wound! You've got a skill of six in Pistols! That's how it's supposed to be done. Not "Hey, I made your character. In two runs, you get to learn your entire history." Best make sure they have a good -5 Flaw to take its place if you do. Best would be Hunted or Bad Rep. Of course, that's just the way I'd throw it. And newbies should learn to make the character too. Get some help from the GM and other players, but don't just make them a sheet. That's just no fun. =\ |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:47 AM
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#64
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
I never claimed it was. I said it was a useful tool for introducing a specific type of newbie to the game in a specific circumstance. Not everyone wants to make their own character, and not everyone else in the group wants to wait around a few hours just so the complete and total newbie to gaming can sit around, struggling to grasp the rules and build a character. And few would want to do the latter while the rest of their friends are playing and laughing. |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:54 AM
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#65
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
So you bring the new kid a few hours early to help him out. Or even the new kid and one or two people who would be willing to help him out. There truly is no excuse for not teaching somebody the system before they play.
Besides, what are they going to do while you virtually control their character? Sit around bored for who knows how long when combat comes up? Yeah, right. |
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Nov 5 2003, 12:57 AM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
Oy. Yes, that's exactly what they're going to do. You're spot on. Good job. That's completely and without question what I was referring to.
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Nov 5 2003, 05:47 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227 |
Unfortunatley, I don't know how to tapdance....
+++++++++++++++++++++++ I do think the Infirm flaw should be fixed so that it reduces both racial max AND racial modified limit. Modified limit wouldn't go below 1, of course. That way, it would actually make it more expensive for characters to raise thier stats to levles that normal people could easily achieve. As an example, I've had heart surgery and am restricted from some kinds of working out (lifting weights, aerobic training that will raise VO2 max) for health reason and by drugs I take. I bike a lot, am pretty tall, and I think I could fairly claim to have Bod 4, STR 3, QK 3 if I was a SR character. Would I have an Infirm flaw? Yeah, probably. Is it at rating 4+, which is what the current rule would seem to indicate? Probably not. Rating 2 would make more sense- and under my proposed fix, it would be enough to hinder me from raising my Bod stat, by raising the karma cost. Then again, my heart condition di threaten my life, so maybe I traded in the "Borrowed Tme" flaw for 4 points worth of "Infirm", plus some other stuff... |
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Nov 5 2003, 06:25 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Singapore Member No.: 4,487 |
*chokes on burger, spits out drink* :rotfl: |
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Nov 5 2003, 06:41 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Singapore Member No.: 4,487 |
Amnesia is a wonderful thing but can only be used so often. :)
In the last SR campaign I ran several months back, all three of the player characters started the game in a burning car turned upside down, caught in a tree over the edge of a 100-ft cliff and slowly slipping. The car was all banged up and in their drowsy slowly-coming-to-full-consciousness state, they could hear the flames lighting up the tree as well. They had absolutely NO memory of what had just happened and who they were or how they got there. They were dressed in street clothes but were wearing armour and had holsters or fast-draw rigs for firearms but there was only one pistol in the car (they figured the others must have gone out the windshield/windows during the crash 'cos there were a heckuva lotta bullet casings everywhere). During their climb out, one of them accidentally kicked the boot open and out fell a body and several weapons which dropped to the ocean below. When they got to the road above, they came under fire from a couple of strangers all kitted out for urban combat who seem surprised to see them come up from over the edge. Anyway, they all had -5 Amnesia and I created their characters for them. They had no idea whatsoever what they were capable of - hell, they didn't even know what they looked like till much later when they had a breather from being chased, and looked into a mirror! It lent a GREAT air of intensity to everything and I would recommend an "amnesiac" game at least once to every GM! :D I'd roll all their skills behind a screen for a while and after a while, rolled some of the dice in the open as they got accustomed to what they were capable of and eventually, I rolled their full skill level in the open when I felt they (in character) had a good feel for what they could do. It was fantastic while it lasted and it wasn't all that easy for them to figure out who they were and what they could do, and I give them a lot of credit for doing as well as they did. :D |
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Nov 5 2003, 08:21 AM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Dont remind me about the Amnesia -2 flaw. My poor gentle Firebringer shaman got the shock of his life when he realized that he had been a blood mage.
Flashbacks are a VERY lethal tool for GM's since you are doing NOTHING for D6 minutes. IF you fail your WP test and roll a 6 for Flashbacks you will be standing still for 6 minutes, or 120 combat turns. 120 combat turns... I have a severe problem with that amount of time in a COMBAT situation. If it was D6 combat turns it would explain more since you should be able to be jolted out of it. |
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Nov 5 2003, 08:23 AM
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#71
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Show me just 1 thread I've said this in. Considering I -just- found this out 3 days ago, I'm either suffering from a bout of amnesia, or you're full of shit. To others: Daytime Job. You've got to remember that a flaw has to be a flaw. Infirm is a flaw in that it limits advancement. A job is a flaw in that it limits available time. If someone is failing to show up for work, the GM earns the right to 'fire' the individual, and replace that flaw with another 1 to 3 pointer. Personally, I usually take Police Record (this would be the flaw I normally chat about) because for -6 points, all you have to do is report to your payroll officer regularly, and even if you skip payroll, you're still overly paranoid about Cops (a good habit in Shadowrun). Sphynx |
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Nov 5 2003, 08:52 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Fruminous, I'm not sure what you're getting at with that long list of 'free' Flaws. It seems to me you're saying they're free if the GM doesn't enforce them - well, wouldn't that include all flaws, not just about half of them?
(seems we're destined to misunderstand each other, huh?) I expect my players to know their character, and if they have flaws I shouldn't have to be checking up on them. I have a player who's taken the Day Job flaw. They are a freelance secure courier/escort rigger. I have generated overheads for the business, including her agent and mechanic (two contacts she has, so they'll skip a paycheck once or twice before walking away). It makes the flaw slightly less powerful because if she doesn't take legit jobs but earns enough from running she can subsidise the business to keep it going - but less legit jobs means her legit rep is not being maintained and she'll get less work and end up running to keep her business going, not getting the income money from the flaw and not having enough to maintain her vehicle and drones. On the plus side there's an awful lot she can write off as a tax expense... But its still a Flaw (just a -2) - if she doesn't do the hours she can't maintain half her contacts and she really really needs them. But I don't check up on it. She checks in with her agent before accepting a run to make sure she has no work that clashes and so on. Maybe I just have good players! |
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Nov 5 2003, 02:07 PM
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#73
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
You're mixing your posters a bit. TFB made a statement about how some flaws weren't flaws by the rules, and I put up a long list of flaws which require the GM to work at making them a flaw. If the GM doesn't put any effort into exploiting those flaws, they tend to become free points. That said, Day Job is really a low point flaw and shouldn't be THAT limiting. Consider that a minor alergy to platinum is worth -2 points and think of how much of a flaw that really is... Or a fear of one armed midgets... |
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Nov 5 2003, 02:09 PM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
Eh? I think you have me confused with TinkerGnome now. :) I never gave a list of flaws, only mentioned that a few may appear to be "free" as far as game mechanics are concerned, like Vindictive. Drats, he beat me by a nose. Damn gnomes. :D This post has been edited by The Frumious Bandersnatch: Nov 5 2003, 02:10 PM |
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Nov 5 2003, 02:32 PM
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#75
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
It's the albinism and the Dikote™. They make me fast! |
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