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 Thoughts on Goblinization and Social Prejudice, What was the social distribution? |
 Mar 14 2007, 06:13 PM
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#1
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Awakened Master Ninja  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 818 Joined: 30-January 07 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 10,844  |
Some thoughts on the original wave of Goblinization. Are there any detailed accounts of this time (in a sourcebook somewhere) and who was struck by it across society, demographic-wise? As some members of my group have pointed out, if it really was 10% – evenly across the board demographically – then why is there any real prejudice against them? With that high of a percentage, it’s almost certain that every family has someone who Goblinized – and could not be certain that they suddenly wouldn’t as well. This would tend to negate prejudice for it’s victims. In contrast, if it was only the “underclass” who Goblinized, then THAT would certainly generate social prejudice against them.
Your thoughts? |
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Mar 14 2007, 06:25 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
You've got a lot of faith in parental love.
If 10% of all children at adolescence turned into orks and trolls I have little doubt that many people's families would disown them. Treat it as a disease that needed curing, etc. Consider the number of families who have a member who is gay, and the intollerance they still face from family. Then amplify that to something so hideous as turning into a big ugly troll (who may still be gay :P)! |
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Mar 14 2007, 06:26 PM
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#3
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I think you're looking at prejudice entirely too rationally; prejudice is anything but rational.
Homosexuality (for example) occurs pretty evenly across demographics, even if it is treated differently in different demographics. Virtually everyone has friends or relatives who are, and yet there is still prejudice. The difference is there are no closet-case Trolls. edit: Wow. Demerzel and I posted at the same time and both talked about gays and trolls. Oh, I should mention that when I say there are no closet-case Trolls, I mean Trolls who pretend that they are not Trolls. There may certainly be Trolls who pretend that they are not gay. ;-) |
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Mar 14 2007, 06:31 PM
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#4
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 818 Joined: 30-January 07 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 10,844 |
Hmmm...that's one way of looking at it, I suppose. Although most homophobes still think of being gay as a "lifestyle choice," not as an inherent condition. I'm gay and my family's pretty supportive - my Mom rather likes my GF, even. But Goblinization - pretty obviously something you're not responsible for.
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Mar 14 2007, 06:32 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Pretty sure the demographics were across the board.
I think the prejudice comes from the natural fear they inspire with their size and appearance. There may also be something in there about madness. The transformation is violent, painful, and mind-altering. Not everyone survived it. Later, it becomes social. Orks and trolls naturally end up in the lower classes. Let's face it, theyre naturally suited for labor and violence, not etiquette and creative problem solving. |
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Mar 14 2007, 06:33 PM
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#6
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 818 Joined: 30-January 07 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 10,844 |
Also - as I understand it - this also impacted adults. Suddenly - your *spouse* or your adult sibling suddenly mutates into something else. You could be completely childless and *still* have to deal with this.
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Mar 14 2007, 06:45 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
I think the prejudice stems from the "unnaturalness" of all these people suddenly turning into things that don't fit the human mold.
Appearance also plays a factor. The older SR material would talk about elves being fauned over, dwarves being considered cute because of their beards and small size. On the other hand, orcs and trolls were seen as dangerous because they are big and scary looking, what with the big teeth, horns and all that. Orcs and trolls look less human than dwarves or elves, and they are big, so they get worse treatment beause people are more afraid of them. The social aspect does also come into play, as 2bit mentions. Elves and dwarves can be a smart as humans, but orcs and trolls not so much. They are also big and strong which naturally would make them seem more suited for manual labor. That's not always true, of course. You could have a troll smarter than most people and a dumb as a post elf. There is no reason an elf with average stats couldn't be found on a work site either or an orc with average mental stats in an office. As for families having people who Goblinized: every family has people the others shun as it is. Maybe creepy uncle Leon wouldn't seem so bad if cousin Bob suddenly turned into an 8 foot tall monster complete with horns. I can see there being a lot of shame and embarassment, especially toward orcs and trolls. Elves and dwarves would probably have less trouble though. |
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Mar 14 2007, 06:46 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
That's right. It was 10% of everyone, not just kids. That would probably be really rough, not knowing if the people you saw in the morning would still be "human" when you came home in the evening, or if you yourself would still be human. |
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Mar 14 2007, 07:04 PM
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#9
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Actually, no. In Japan, turning into a metahuman was seen as something you deserved - you were unclean, you'd done bad things in your life, it's retribution, etc. In strongly conservative areas - exactly the type of people you'd expect not to accept their goblinized children - it might very well be seen as an affliction from God for your sins. Also, in the beginning, a lot of people thought goblinization was a disease, quite probably contagious, that you didn't want to catch. So if you did get it, you'd proably been around them dirty trolls, so you deserved it. |
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Mar 14 2007, 07:13 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Their speech is also different than the other races because of the structure of the mouth. That may or may not be part of the - CHA they suffer. And orks breed like friggin' dogs. |
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Mar 14 2007, 07:15 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 811 Joined: 30-January 07 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 10,845 |
I don't think that goblinization occurred equally across all social demographics. I remember reading (don't remember the exact book ref.) that orcs and trolls genes tend to express themselves more prominently in the lower class of society, while elves and dwarves tend to express in wealthier tier of society. Of course, as mentioned by posts in that section, it could be due to other factors such as abortion of the unwanted child, or any number of other causes besides nutrition.
I think it was SOTA: 2063, the section about Gene Tech. Ill post some quotes when I get home. |
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Mar 14 2007, 07:21 PM
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#12
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Even today's birth control would make natural tendancies toward child numbers irrelevant. In 2070, I'd expect both increased technology and increased social acceptance of it to limit the number of children to exactly the number that the parent wanted. In fact, I would go as far as saying that having children likely requires a conscious decision in 2070. Both human and ork women will have precisely as many children as they want. So this is irrelevant outside of some disaster that required massive and urgent re-population. |
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Mar 14 2007, 07:27 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
And how does the fact that they're the most populous metatype (despite a shorter lifespan) support that conclusion?
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Mar 14 2007, 07:33 PM
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#14
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
They're Catholic? |
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Mar 14 2007, 07:53 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
That's a good point. The wrong accent in the wrong place can get you looked down on no matter how smart and educated you are. By the same token, speech impediments are seen as either amusing or a sign of stupidity. Here is a link that discusses the difference in population growth in social classes, in a humorous way of course. You could compare it to Elves vs. Orcs. Why idiots will take over. |
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Mar 14 2007, 08:01 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
"Orks" dammit!
One of the early warning signs of D20 cancer in your brain is spelling it "Orc", unless or course you're talking about the Ork Rights Coalition. You might want to get that checked. |
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Mar 15 2007, 06:05 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 811 Joined: 30-January 07 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 10,845 |
Kay, Im too lazy to look up the books and pages now. But on the whole Ork population thing, I dont really get it.
Besides the prejudice and employment problems that orks and trolls face in modern society, I really dont buy the published fluff that all metatypes are equal, or that they would all act the same. Even if Orks are fully developed at 12 (Dont have any reference for this, just told this by another player), They only have a good 30 years before death, and I dont think all of it is spent in the prime. Trolls on the other hand, will live on average 20 more years than Orks, while Humans even more. Dwarves also have a late age of average mortality (though it has not yet been reached in the sixth world). I leave elves seperate from this because they are seperate, in many, many ways from the rules of natural life and death obeyed by the other metatypes. Sure, they can be shot, but if most elves grow up at least middle class they have a very high probability of surviving environmental factors. Now assuming they dont reproduce (and why would you delivery when you have hundreds of years to choose), If the other metatypes keep producing elves and the rest of the elves never die, I can see an elf overpopulation problem occuring within the next 100 years and it will be quite substantial long before that. Orks, on the other hand, reproduce like rabits because, just like animals they have have a very short stint on this earth and only a very short time to shine. I dont even think for them it is a conscious decision, but more of a genetic imperative (BREED!). I know if I knew I only had some 10 years on the market, Id be pushing my wares. I think Dwarves and Trolls probably follow a more human cycle. Anyways, shows over, Im tired. |
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Mar 15 2007, 06:41 AM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'll grant that even dirt-poor types can afford condoms, and that condoms are probably of greatly increased reliability. however, social and other factors make the use of condoms and other birth control methods much less common than their availability would suggest. i try not to make sweeping generalizations, but the trend seems to be that poor people in the US--where various birth control methods can be easily attained by just about anyone, regardless of their financial state--tend to have more kids than more well-off families. (i'm not a sociologist, so if anyone cares to refute that, i'll gladly listen.) there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason why this trend wouldn't be passed on to orks, who tend to be poorer than, say, humans or elves or even dwarves. |
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Mar 15 2007, 06:42 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
The reason elves were disproportionally born into upper middle class and higher was because of abortions. The Tir na nOg sourcebook talks about how the nobles would kill off the disfigured dwarf babies and keep the beautiful elf babies. God forbid if a blue blood gave birth to an ork or troll, or a noble goblinized. Explains why Ireland is overrun with Nazi Mage Immortal Elves. I usually just ignore the breed like rabbits and very reduced age limits for Orks and various other "What the F***" explanations in Shadowrun. Keeps my head on straight.
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Mar 15 2007, 06:50 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, that would actually just make orks and trolls disproporionately lower-class, relative to the rest of the metatypes; elves and dwarves would only be disproportionately middle- and upper-class in comparison to orks and trolls. compared to metahumanity as a whole, elves and dwarves would be evenly spread out.
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Mar 15 2007, 07:01 AM
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#21
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
If you're talking about the section I think you are , that was commented on later to have been faulty/manipulated research from a Humanis researcher for propaganda purposes. People all over were goblinizing. Didn't matter your social strata, just like magic. A lot of "pillow death" would go a long way to skewing the records however. Later on, orks being pushed down because of prejudice, combined with thier hgh birth rate, already in lower class situations, is a bit of self fulfilling prophecy. A really good book about all of this, and a very old one, is the book Changeling. It's about a very intelligent young man very a rich family who goblinizes into a troll in the '50's. Admittedly it;s not the biggest page turner, but I strongly recommend it for anyone trying to get a better feel for the SR world and how it turns. |
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Mar 15 2007, 07:13 AM
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#22
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
You'll note that I said birth control and not condoms. We have a male contraceptive pill and a male contraceptive injection passing through clinical trials at the moment. I think they'll be available next year, let alone in 2070. You'll also note that I specifically mentioned that by 2070, social acceptance of birth control is likely to be far more universal than it is today. Particularly for the more intrusive methods. I could see parents getting their kids an implant the moment they hit puberty, just as a standard precaution against teenage fatherhood / motherhood. They wouldn't think anything about it. You noted that social factors are what affect number of children in human society today. THAT is my point. There's no reason for Orks to have more children than humans. Poor orks more than rich humans. Poor humans more than rich orks. |
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Mar 15 2007, 07:18 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
When are they going to bring in the Mr. Stud implant to SR RAW? "Go all night, and she won't even know!"
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Mar 15 2007, 07:35 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
There's actually a hint of that in the Runner Havens; excuse me while I pull out the pdf From the "Superstition" subsection of the Hong Kong portion, page 8:
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Mar 15 2007, 07:39 AM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, there is - orks have a tendency towards multiples. |
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