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 Thoughts on Goblinization and Social Prejudice, What was the social distribution? |
 Mar 15 2007, 07:54 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861  |
Yeah, it's not that they have a lot of sex, it's that when they do have kids, they have litters.
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Mar 15 2007, 08:11 AM
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#27
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Way to edit out the first six lines of my post. Put the "given the prevalence and undoubted sophistication and dirt-cheapness of birth control in 2070," back in the start of that sentance, would you? If you think that Mrs. (or Mr.) Ork deliberately decides to have a children, and then accidentally has six or seven, then we're very much in disagreement about the level and prevalence on SR2070 tech. And I feel that extrapolating from cannon material and published tech and prices, that my view of SR2070 tech is more supportable. IMO, of course. -K. |
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Mar 15 2007, 08:28 AM
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#28
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Obviously. While there is tech to control cell division, it isn't exactly cheap. The other options are partial abortion and infanticide. And no, a fast-growing ork population is still canon. |
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Mar 15 2007, 01:56 PM
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#29
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
And I'd like to think that anyone with half a brain knows the same thing about homosexuality. That doesn't mean it's true. Any scan through TV channels or the lower end of the FM band uncovers droves of people that, while may be quite 'intelligent' otherwise, still think that being gay is the devvvvvvvyl's work. *sigh* In SR canon, the same kind of social prejudice is applied to metahumanity. No matter how worldly or intelligent a person, society says it's "okay" to hate Trolls (and if it doesn't actively support it, it actively condones it; much the way that gay bashing is actively condoned by today's American society). And don't get me started on the "Orks have short lives and breed in litters" nonsense. I'm just waiting for the day that the SR community collectively realizes that it's just as idiotic as when Elves were all vegetarians by canon. |
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Mar 15 2007, 02:18 PM
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#30
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Just the other day I heard someone actually claim that they could come down with a case of "gay" through osmosis or some such nonsense. It seems to be human nature to divide ourselves up into groups. Perhaps it has something to do with the importance of our sense of "self" that we require, absolutely require, a sense of "other". We need to somehow divide ourselves into "us" and "them". And the only time a "them" group is accepted into an "us" group is when the "us" group finds a new "them", and not before. If there are no good lines for us to divide ourselves up with, then we invent one. I believe SR goes along with this to a degree, in that it mentions that prejudices due to things like ethnicity and sexuality are largely things of the past. To paraphrase, "Why worry about that tanned looking fellow when that thing has hands the size of your head?" In SR people don't have to hate the homosexuals or the <fill in your favorite ethnicity> They have metas and magicians to hate, and they're much more obvious targets. |
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Mar 15 2007, 02:23 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
But it is a shame that we cannot define ourselfs, or group in a positive manner.
Most start off that way, I am Canadian, I am America, etc.., but then often spirals down into negativity when saying what we are not. I am xxxxxx, and not an evil imperialistic fearmongering yyyyyyy. Should have stopped at xxxxxxx, but for most, we don't Shakes his head. |
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Mar 15 2007, 02:30 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I'm glad someone else feels this way - I've always said there will be no peace on earth until we discover intelligent alien life :) Categorizing is central to the way human beings view the world. We see life only through contrast - that's a truism applicable to all aspects of the human condition. It's only possible to know one thing by comparing it to another. |
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Mar 15 2007, 03:17 PM
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#33
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well personally the way I see it is that yes, high tech gene treatments to keep all but one egg that the Ork female had dropped from fertiziling, partial abortions and the like do exist, and are probably heavily used by the middle class + Orks, but the more typical lower class Ork simply doesn't have the cred to pay for them. This way the Orkish race's doomed existance is self-fullfilling. Not only do the poor and hick Orks choose to get "preggers" more often the the middle class Orks, when they do so the poor Orks give birth to litters because the only relable options that they can afford would kill all of their babies, while the middle class Orks only keep whatever number they want. And of course, because of racism, more Orks are poor then not. |
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Mar 15 2007, 03:22 PM
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#34
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Why is that? Why shouldn't Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once? |
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Mar 15 2007, 06:36 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
I personally am not a fan of the huge variations of lifespan in cannon SR. Combined with attribute mods shows that regards to ork and trolls, Humanis is right. Orks and trolls are dumb short lived brutes. The insane lifespan of elves (combined with the vague "metabolic studies") reminds me of immortal elves and the less said about them the better.
As for ork prejudice, not accounting for the INT and CHA modifiers, it would exist. As said before, there are pretty of ways to think as your fellow man as "other." However, I'm not sure it would be as widespread or as deep as portrayed in canon. The major reason is the random nature of goblinization. For everyone who thinks "my brother is no longer human since he's an ork" there would be one who thinks "my brother is my brother." As for the homosexual allusion, I'm uncertain how apt it is. Firstly, one can hide homosexuality (the proverbial "coming out of the closet"), it's much harder to do so with being an ork. Also there is the viewpoint that homosexuality is a "choice." That's a lot harder to argue with a worldwide change. Now there certainly can be prejudice. I still would think it's more of the bias against the handicap or dwarfism than racial prejudice. Awkwardness and the thought that of it as "condition that you couldn't control" but nothing like "no orks allowed." This is especially apt since becoming an ork or troll leads to intelligence and charisma loss. |
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Mar 15 2007, 06:57 PM
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#36
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Why? Why should Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once? Why should Elves be vegetarians? IMO, the only reason these situations were ever written into the game so that a gaming population used to the Orcs, Trolls, Elves, etc of D&D and mythology would be a little more accepting of the races in SR, and cynically, because people wouldn't want to see "new" ideas, they want familiar. I don't think it was necessary then, and I certainly don't think it's necessary now. SR doesn't have to be silly to be different and interesting. The SR of today (okay, of a few years back, SR3) has come a long way from the "elves are called dandelion eaters because they're actually vegetarians and can't eat meat" days. Other parts are just taking a while to catch up. |
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Mar 15 2007, 09:33 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 144 Joined: 6-March 07 From: Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 11,168 |
As far as Orcs and Trolls birth rates and life span goes, one of those is a very simple answer. The shorter life spans make sense because it is fairly well established that taller, bigger people live shorter lives. Andre the Giant, and many other humans 7 feet tall and taller live shorter due to the amount of extra stress on the body. It takes more effort for the body to pump the blood around and it stresses the organs more, and also the bones are weakened by all the weight and gravity weighing down on it all the time.
As for reproduction rate...thats probably just a flavor thing. It could be a matter of social class and the link to the fact that the lower social classes reproduce more often, along with the possibility that it is a racial bias and isn't true. The same is or used to be said about certain racial groups in the USA (Irish, Latino, Asian) despite it only being true with specific case studies, and in said situation it can be said about all groups. I mean with the Irish it was Irish Catholics, which was a heck of a big subsection, but a subsection none the less. |
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Mar 15 2007, 09:48 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
>>>>>[Doin' every damn thing to fix that I can, chummer]<<<<< -Crorker <10:03:02/11-23-70> |
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Mar 15 2007, 09:51 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861 |
You also have to remember that shadowrun's atmosphere is very dark, that people do not unite and come together, that there have been so many disasters and global upsets that everyone is afraid. One big thing keeping the orcs and trolls down is that the corps don't like them. Orcs and trolls give corps a bad image. So Orcs and Trolls can't get into corp jobs, they can't make money, certain groups despise them, a lot of people think they are stupid useless brutes, and this all causes them to become poor.
A lot of people defend trolls and orcs on the surface, but wouldn't give one a job or approve of their daughter marrying one. |
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Mar 16 2007, 01:04 AM
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#40
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well Hida Tsuzua personally I kind-of like the idea that Humanis has some valid points instead of being nothing more then 2D cut-outs of the bigots of the past, spewing empty hatard.
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Mar 16 2007, 01:18 AM
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#41
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
As another reason to back it up, the ork reproduction rate and shorter life span was also true in ED, as was the troll life cycle. The Elves were never vegetarians there. So that's an awful lot to retcon. And animals with shorter life spans tend to have more off spring, so one goes in hand with the other. |
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Mar 16 2007, 01:23 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
I got into Shadowrun for the sole reason that it adds some shade of realism to something i enjoy, fantasy. Things like alignment, mages spewing spells until they "forget" them all, xp for murder and everyone is the hero of the world always drove me crazy. Shadowrun doesn’t have cookie cutter classes and races and the more they stay away from that, the better. Stereotypes are fine but to have cannon back it up is silly. Its like if you made a Asian character, he will have +2 to intelligence because the stereotype is that they are smart. I don't mind that orcs live shorter then humans or that elves live longer, but to have elves living for hundreds of years is silly. The issue of orc litters i think is the wording. If they said orcs have two or three children at once is fine, but to say they have litters like a pig is just wrong.
One thing i really hate is when cannon undermine something real and very human for something fantastic to make you go "oh WOW". Stuff like EIs were every famous person in history and dragons control the world just make me mad. I don’t mind some of histories players have been EI or dragons are big movers and shakers (no pun intended) but to have some sort of absolute is just silly. So thinks like all elves living forever or mages all wearing neon runes on their robes makes the game less then more. That’s my crazy, erratic and unintelligible 2 cents. |
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Mar 16 2007, 01:27 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 144 Joined: 6-March 07 From: Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 11,168 |
I don't know what that post has to do with the thread Cang, but here here. I would agree with you on your points.
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Mar 16 2007, 01:30 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
i added something about orcs and their children so i wouldnt sound so much like the crazy old man that i am. :)
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Mar 16 2007, 01:31 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 144 Joined: 6-March 07 From: Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 11,168 |
Hahaha. Good call, way to slip in a valid point :P
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Mar 16 2007, 01:32 AM
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#46
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
IIRC , orks tend to have a higher tendancy of having multiple children. Which doesn't exactly neccesitate actual litters (like 5+). That's something more like Humanis talk. BUt they do tend to have more. Maybe if someone could get us page quotes, say from SOTA 64?
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Mar 16 2007, 01:37 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 16-February 07 Member No.: 11,018 |
Can't we all just get along?
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Mar 16 2007, 01:47 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
It's an interesting spin I agree and what I'll do if I keep mental modifiers for metahumans during my admittedly slow reworking of Shadowrun. However it's something that to my knowledge never supported in the books especially if you look at First to Third edition books. They are 2D cutouts pure and simple. The fact they're right is something that isn't intended and comes off wrong. It's similar to realizing that the Evil Overlord is really what's best for the world and the heroes are dooming it. What's being told and shown doesn't match, causing a disconnect and showing the lack of thought in the story/setting. |
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Mar 16 2007, 01:57 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
here what SR4 says
I looked over SOTA 64 and didnt see much other then ork language and pop scene. |
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Mar 16 2007, 02:16 AM
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#50
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well, I suppose different tastes for different people, because I've always been rather fond of the idea that the 'Evil Overlord' despite being a complete bastard and a tyrant actually was doing what was best for everyone, and that once over-thrown the heroes find that they need to pick up the slack, will they become what they've hated and fought against for so long or will they doom the world to something far worse? Or will they actually manage to find a third option in time?
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