help me reverst my strict Gm's house-rule, img magn v3 + combat Options

[PlutoNick]

I started playing Shadowrun 1.5 months ago. After 5 sessions, our GM rules out the rule that Cyber eyes image magnification reduces target numbers as an image scope would. So instead of having a 2 target number in medium range, my weapon specialist has 4.

In essence he loses part of his combat expertise, his years of training went down the drain, not to mention his 7000 nuyen of image magn cyberware. Instead of being Hardboiled's Tequila, Die Hard's John McLane, instead of being the neoWilliam Tell v2.0, Robin Digital Hood, he becomes one third of the three stooges, bozzo the clown if you like.

Furthermore, he says that any shot in long range suffers a -1 penalty in power rating.

Please, help me reverse his decision. Tell me some good points in order to make him understand, to see the light. If anything else fails, humiliate him so when he sees this threat, he will bow his head in humiliation and make US weapon specialists, the pride of UCAS that of any evil megacorp will fear.

[Req]

http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?sh...wtopic=1588&hl=

That -1 to power at long range seems kinda annoying, but you know I have to go with your GM on the rest of it.

[PlutoNick]

you are ruining everything man. If you agree with that despicable being that I have to call GM every saturday, then please, keep your opinion to yourself. If you are GMing I hope your PCs kill every puny NPCs of your at extreme range every time!!


Straight from the official shadowrun faq

--
Are you going to publish a Shadowrun, Fourth Edition?
What, are you trying to say that Shadowrun, Third Edition isn't perfect?!
No, we have no plans for SR4 at this time.
--

How dare you disregard our bible? I am sure you are a D&D player.

[PlutoNick]

If you are Spiros, my GM, you will never hear the end of this

[Kagetenshi]

How were you getting a TN of 2 at medium range, pray tell? The only way to get below 4 with a scope is if your GM allows a laser sight to stack, which still only yields a 3.
As for cybereye magnification... any idea why he forbade them? I'm not understanding the problems here.
The -1 in power is icky, yes, but arguably realistic and rarely a problem, I'd say.

~J

edit: Straight from the SR3 rulebook: "In other words, if something in these rules doesn't quite fit or make sense to you, feel free to change it. If you come up with a game mechanic that you think works better—go for it!"

Page 38, BBB, "The Abstract Nature of Rules"

[Tanka]

A TN2 at medium is a bit low, methinks. No matter how much training you have, it's still a shot from the hip. At short range I can see TN2 only because of a few pieces of wiz ware, other than that you have no clue where it's going (Guncam and Image Link aside.). Now, taking the time to line up your shots is another story.

If you want the TN2 at Medium, work on it yourself. I won't tell you how, but don't come whining to us when your GM makes a rule that makes sense to him. It's a house rule, and, therefore, is only applicable when he GMs. If you so stringently want it repealed, find out a way to abuse it yourself, so that way he'll either edit it or remove it entirely.

[Bearclaw]

The rules, as written, don't allow a smartgun and image magnification at the same time. I'm sure your GM has a problem with the TN of 2. If he follows the rules as written, you'll have a TN of 4 either way, right?

Either the base TN of 4 because your magnification knocks off the penalty for long range, or:
TN of 4 because 6 -2 for the smartgun = 4.

[PlutoNick]

here is how i get a 2 tn from medium range.

-2 from smartlink
and my img magnification cybereyes rating 3, reduce any range 3 stages. so long and medium become short range tn 4 (-2) = 2

"In other words, if something in these rules doesn't quite fit or make sense to you, feel free to change it. If you come up with a game mechanic that you think works better—go for it!"

My image magnfication cybereyes and the help I get from aiming, certainly fit very well and make sense to me and to the Street Samurai friend I got [His name is Red Baron and he is furious with the recent changes as well]

[RedBaron]

Well the solution is to try to shoot the GM in real life with a submachine when he is in medium range and see how difficult it is... (after that maybe find a new GM is needed... but it's the best way i think... plus the new GM wont abuse the rules for sure)

[Tanka]

It's stated many times in many books that Smartlink is not compatible with Image Mag and many other types of vision. A lot of things that also give you -TN also say they don't work with Smartlink. Your Vision Mag may make Long seem like Short, but not while using the Smartlink.

[Kagetenshi]

Well, given that the rules explicitly state that bonuses from magnification and smartlink don't stack... if he won't let the eyemag work at all then I'd question that, but your TN at Medium is going to be 4 anyway.

~J

[Tanka]

[Kagetenshi]

You're right. I forgot the TN for medium range.

~J

[PlutoNick]

Red Baron take it easy. I think we were wrong all along.

If vision magnification works the same as an imaging scope, then you can't use a smartlink, is that correct?

Still, I prove that the GM instead of checking the rulebook, he arbitrarily made a house rule. SR3 is flawless after all. The faq was right.

So, now I only need to abuse vision magnification without smartlink as tank suggested.

Does vision magnification work while holding two guns?

[Kagetenshi]

Yes, it does. If you aren't going dual-gun, go with a Smartlink and Rangefinder for 2/3/4/5 TNs (IIRC); if you are, stick with the eyemag and fire away.
Keep in mind the penalties for using two firearms, though.

~J

[Req]

[PlutoNick]

Don't tell this to my GM but I dont think it should.

If vision magnif works as image scopes, and it would be very difficult to use two image scopes while going dual-gun. Therefore vision magnif shouldn't work, or at least that is what the GM will claim, unless of course I am forgetting some rules detail.

[Kagetenshi]

I completely agree. It makes more sense that smartlinks would work with two guns than magnification of any sort. However, I don't think they thought to specifically forbid the latter, whereas they did think of the former.

~J

[RedBaron]

I think it should work cause u dont magnify the guns u magnify the target (now if u fire at 2 different targets ok...)

[TinkerGnome]

The best combo is to have both smartlink and image magnification. You only really need Smartlink-II if you plan on using grenade launchers (or really want that TN of 3 at long range), so you can even save a little bit of :nuyen: by going with the basic system instead.

Back on the subject of why they don't stack. A loaded out gun which could use both systems would have the following TNs. (smartlink + rangefinder + rangefinder on gun + image mag 3)

Short 2, Medium 2, Long 1, Extreme 0.

[Kagetenshi]

TN 3 at long range? How?
But yes, even though they don't stack there are valid reasons for having both Smartlinks and magnification.

~J

[TinkerGnome]

[The Frumious Ban...]

[nezumi]

PlutoNick, I think you're my new favorite person to read posts from...

Without debating whether the rules justify your statement or not, I'd have to side with your GM because of the basic fact that he is the GM. His job is to be the final judge (period). When RPGs turn into democracies, they turn into messes, especially with people like you who want to be able to blow the eyelashes off a fly at eight hundred yards. If you have a problem with it, than I recommend two things. 1) Talk with your GM like a normal human being, no humiliating, no whining and no shouting or insults. Write out why you think it should be changed rules wise and balance wise (the second one is very important). Discuss it out of game, when he has time to talk. If he says 'no', respect it and drop it forever FOREVER (or at least for a month). 2) Get a new GM. If you really can't stand him, I recommend YOU try running the game. I'm sure he'd enjoy a break, it's hard work GMing. Don't be mean about it, though, we're all gentle people. Simply express that this is not the sort of game you'd like to play, with your being vulnerable to small arms fire and all that, and start working on setting up a game you would enjoy.

However, I think you'll find that, when it comes down to it, this isn't such a horrible setup. It sounds like your GM is interested in keeping things fair and realistic. If you feel like your character is suffering because you previously were not aware of his house rule, tell him and see if he'll let you get the money and essence back for your eyes. But otherwise I'd say stick with it and learn to live with the fact that sometimes the GM will not agree with you rules-wise, and that's his job. Your job is to accept his rules and move on so you both can enjoy the game.

[nezumi]

Oh, almost forgot... Your character is not totally wasted. The SLII setup is best for short and medium range, and doesn't rely on magnification. However, for medium to extreme range, the best setup is a scope with an extreme range laser, giving you (still) a TN of 3, even at the farthest range. So if you have SLII AND mag vision AND the laser, no matter how far the target, the TN is always 3 or below.