[X] My Assistant

[Ed_209a]

Pluto, I wouldn't let you use both SG and cyber mag vision either.

HOwever, if you had a SG link or a laser on the weapon, I would let you take the mag vision bonuses as if it were a riflescope.

But, in the end, it's not my game.

[TinkerGnome]

[Kagetenshi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[TinkerGnome]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Nothing stacks with anything, except (obviously) Smartlink(-2) with Rangefinder. But if you've got Vision Magnification-3 and a Smartlink(-2), you can get the "scope" bonuses, OR you can use the Smartlink(-2) bonuses.

I wasn't trying to say this is a good way of ruling it or anything. I just wanted to mention it, since people were talking about different ways of house ruling the situation.

[kevyn668]

[Shockwave_IIc]

I guess im the only one that housed ruled that to use a scope, you have to of decleared an aim action before hand.

[Shadow]

Heres an idea. Use the rules as written.

House rules more often than not are created to cover a specific situation and don't really cover all that apply.

The -1 power at long range is just dumb (imho) why fix something that isn't broken? And if changing it doesn't matter because you change it for everyone than why change it? (More book keeping again)

My advice to you man is to tell your GM to stick to the rules. SG doesn't stack with anything. It sounds like you weren't following them before but oh well. It's tough but there have been some good ideas above, read them and do them, but kill the lame house rules.

[Kagetenshi]

[Andvare]

[TinkerGnome]

Scopes are for snipers. Unless, that is, you're using an ultrasound scope and goggles. Those are a bit different, I believe.

[Glyph]

By the way, according to the CC, you can't use any targeting or imaging accessories when using two guns at once. So, you can't use a smartlink or vision magnification when using two guns.

[Tanka]

My GMs always just let dual guns go with one Smartlink. Different colored crosshairs or somesuch.

Just a house rule, though. Don't go saying it's canon, because it sure as crap isn't.

[Diesel]

[Wonazer]

[Diesel]

Sounds splendid to me. :D

Unless you want to go hardcore Raygun-esque, but I have a nagging suspicion that that is best left to my campaigns.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I must admit that I'm surprised to hear that even .50BMG rounds penetrate better at very long ranges. And after looking at the tables mentioned there, I am very curious as to how armor piercing rounds manage at different ranges. Anyhow...

The Field Manual only talks about penetration of structural materials. With all the rounds, penetration is enhanced most by range against materials like sand bags, earth, pine board, etc. Against cinder blocks or concrete, this effect is much smaller or non-existant. The only round for which the FM shows a table for range/material/penetration, the 7.62x51mm Ball , seems to penetrate cinder blocks best at 100 meters, and penetration of concrete does not significantly change with range (up to 200 meters, that is).

All the other data seem to reinforce the view that against rigid or thin layers of armor, the shorter the range the better (at least down to 100 meters). You need (a lot) more rounds to penetrate concrete with a M2HB at longer ranges, etc.

A human being is a thick, semi-fluid object. The less the bullet penetrates of it, the better. The optimum situation is very close, where a bullet still has almost all of it's muzzle energy left, if a bullet only slightly overpenetrates, so that all of that energy is transferred into the target. Thus, against a living creature, any of the weapons and ammunition mentioned in the FM-90-10-1 are at their most leathal at as short a range as possible. For more proof of this, see Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets (once again from Raygun's site) and read through the bits about the terminal ballistics of 5.56x45mm NATO Ball rounds and the West German 7.62x51mm NATO Ball. (I'm guessing you'll know most of this already, but some people might not. And it's worth mentioning anyway, since it goes towards the "damage potential" bit of reducing Power at long ranges.)

The other medium the penetration of which is important to SR players is body armor, which is extremely thin (compared to any of the materials mentioned in the FM). Additionally, the penetration of body armor is a rather binary thing -- the bullet either goes through, or it stops cold on the outside. The data I've seen (mainly the NIJ documents which can be found on Raygun's site) indicates that it is very, very rare for a bullet to penetrate some but not all of a suit of armor.

Because of this, of the mediums mentioned in the document, body armor is most like concrete, but even more extreme. And, would you have guessed it, concrete is the medium with which the FM shows there's least advantage in penetration as range gets longer. In fact, like I mentioned above, the FM indicates that the shorter the range the better against such a material. The NIJ documents also indicate that bullets penetrate body armor best at short ranges.

So, against many (or most) structural materials (of the world in 2000), firearms do seem to have worse penetration capabilities at short range. However, in Shadowrun, breaching structural materials is a very uncommon use of firearms (at least it seems to be in my games), and against the kinds of threats most commonly faced by firearm wielders range is not an advantage but a disadvantage.

[Edit]I just LUUUUV going hardcore, but I know I haven't got what it takes to be Raygun-esque. But if you can find a good counter-argument for what I wrote above, I'll take your word for this.[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 10 2004, 01:17 PM

[Kurukami]

[Kagetenshi]

No, it says you can have a pad in each hand, so when the GM says your right arm has been cut off you can use your left. It doesn't mean you can use two guns at the same time; as a matter of fact, I might even give penalties as the crosshair tries to track two guns at the same time. Ever tried to use a mouse and a trackpad at the same time on the same computer?

~J

[tisoz]

[Ed_209a]

That TM also mainly refers to the 5.56mm round impacting fairly rigid objects.

If you presume that a bullet does not change at all after an impact, then max penetration will be at the muzzle, where velocity is maximum.

However, the 5.56mm NATO round has two velocity threshholds that affect it's performance.

If it hits an object fast enough, it will break into many smaller fragments, essentially exploding on impact. If the round is moving slower than above, but faster than another critical velocity, the bullet will snap in half.

These velocity threshholds exist for all ammo, but are different depending on size and construction. Since the bullet deformation depends on target resistance, the values will probably be a bit lower when hitting something like a wall compared to a person or a sandbag.

[Siege]

Actually, it might help instinctive shooting at close (intimate) ranges.

Instead of tracking a laser sight, a floating smartlink reticle is probably easier to see and would help the: Is gun on target? Yes/No resolution.

Using two guns on one target is infinitely easier than trying to engage seperate targets in your field of vision, especially if you're not worried about aiming so much as putting rounds in center mass.

Not to derail the tangent on well-explored threads...

-Siege

[Kagetenshi]

It all depends on how exactly the smartlink works. It's entirely possible that once you introduce a second gun into a system designed for a single gun, the crosshair will no longer have any relation to the actual target of either gun. Strange things happen when you give more input than a system was designed for.

~J

[Siege]

Yeah, we're dealing with strict hypotheticals.

"If the system works like this, then we can do A and B."

"But, if the system works like this, then we can't do A, but we can do B and C."

:grinbig:

-Siege