[X] My Assistant

[Moon-Hawk]

What are they good for?
This is sort of a spin-off from my XM-30 thread the other day. I had always thought that SMGs got a "free" point of recoil compensation since they got a point for using a stock, where as assault rifles are assumed to use a stock but don't get anything for it. I figured weaker shots = easier to control.
But then it was pointed out to me that shock pads don't work on SMGs. Well hell, that means SMGs can get up to 1 point of RC from their stock (but not 2 from a stock + shock pad), and assault rifles can get up to 1 point of RC from their stock (by adding a cheapy-cheap shock pad) so they're effectively identical in that respect.
So aside from DV:5P AP:0 vs. DV:6P AP:-1, a pretty clear win for the assault rifle, what is there to give SMGs a viable niche?
SMGs only give a +4 to concealability whereas assault rifles give +6, but is two dice really making that big of a difference? If you're trying to be sneaky, the SMG is not sneaky enough, not even under a long coat. If you're not trying to be sneaky, then who cares?

As I understand it (and please feel free to correct me, I have never been in a gunfight or ever shot anything more rapidly than semi-auto) the role of SMG is for urban combat where ranges are typically short and the weapon needs to be easy to handle and aim quickly in potentially close quarters, such as indoors. An assault rifle is just too dang awkward in some of these situations if you're going through doors, around corners, and climbing over rubble. (There was a thread about this a little while ago too, but it kind of went off in a different direction, IIRC)
Unfortunately, there is nothing like that in the rules.

So what can be done to give the SMGs back a viable niche and not make them inferior to assault rifles in every way?

I have an idea, tell me if this is stupid: If someone has been doing something (movement tests like climbing over debris or sprinting), or has just opened a door and found someone behind it (as opposed to having a teammate open the door for him), or is simply surprised, the GM is being reasonable to require a ready-weapon action for an assault rifle, sniper rifle, etc, but should waive that requirement for SMGs, pistols, etc. since they're smaller and easier to bring to bear quickly. Obviously if someone else is opening doors for you while you hold the assault rifle to your shoulder this doesn't apply. This isn't exactly a house-rule, since I'm not changing or contradicting anything explicitly printed, it's just sort of an "interpretation" of the existing rules. I think.
My other idea is to just let shock pads work on SMGs.

So what do we think? Do the rules already give SMGs a viable niche and I'm just missing it? Is there an "interpretation" like my idea above that makes them more consistent with their RL role?
Thanks.

[deek]

Based on RAW, you can fire two SMGs at the same time, something you cannot do with assault rifles...I think that is a pretty big difference that gives the SMG a little bit less inferiority, yes?

So, you have the ability to fire two at the same time and a little better concealability rating in favor of SMGs.

And really, you could make the argument on the flip side that the extra point of DV and -1 AP is not a "huge" difference...obviously, more is better, but those single points, for me, then fall into the realm of being personal preference on weapon styles. Some people are going to pick up an SMG because of its "cool" factor and not worry about the extra point. Obviously, a munchkin will have a problem doing this.

So, not much more, but that is a little something extra in favor of SMGs.

[Moon-Hawk]

So I may be overestimating the importance of the damage difference? Interesting point.

I had completely forgotten about the dual-wielding issue. Maybe some part of my brain did that on purpose, though. ;-)

I'm not entirely convinced yet, but definitely some good points.

[cristomeyers]

Fluff-wise, at least, in my opinion, you're far more likely to come across SMG wielding guards on compounds than assault rifle wielding ones for the reasons you mentioned earlier: SMG's are designed for urban combat. They are also cheaper and don't lose much punch compared to the assualt rifle.

Rules wise, yeah, the assault rifle is kind of a no-brainer. I think this is something that pretty much has to be dealt with via GM because the rules just don't really account for the pros and cons of SMG vs assault rifle very well.

[DireRadiant]

Why stop at assault rifles? Might as well carry a LMG or better right? More range.

[toturi]

There are no Avail F SMGs. SMGs are on the average cheaper. A longcoat reduces the +4 for SMGs to a +2(not quite 1 hit, if taking the 4 dice = 1 hit), but Assault Rifles still give 1 free hit.

[Fix-it]

Cheap.
Concealable
Disposable (cheap)

[Spike]

Since we don't have any rules governing weildiness of weapons, the real advantages of SMGs should ideally remain concealability and availability. The difference is too small as it stands in the concealability.

Ideally you don't really want an SMG with a stock, that makes it more of an underpowered assault rifle, and we already know they can't really compete on that level.

[Moon-Hawk]

Well that's why I was thinking that it might be reasonable for a GM to call for Ready Weapon actions with large weapons and ignore them for small weapons to account for "wieldiness". Basically, a pistol or SMG is considered ready if it is in your hand, but a rifle needs to be held up to the shoulder to be considered "ready", holding it in one hand while you open a door or just walking around with it relaxed in both hands doesn't count as "ready."
Sure, you could probably "quickdraw" it with a pretty low threshold (2 as though in a quickdraw holster, or maybe even 1), but at least that aspect is there.
It's not exactly a house rule, just an interpretation of the definition of "readiness", which is never super-well-defined in the book. Okay, maybe it's a house rule, but you see my point, I hope.
Might that be a good way to simulate wieldiness?

[Kazum]

Well i haven't had the opportunity to play SR4 til now, but the problem was the same in SR3, i suppose. No One ever took an SMG.... But that was mainly my fault as a GM. I think the "readying" rule is quite good, i may use this. Another thing is: When you are crawling in narrow spaces like canalisations, tubes [...] a big weapon like an assault rifle or a shotgun could easily make you stuck there or just makes movement there difficult. That woult be a reason to take an smaller gun.

[imperialus]

I house ruled that Sound Suppressors can't be attached to anything larger than an SMG. Made them significantly more useful. AR's are good for stand up fights in the middle of redmond but if you're crawling through vents trying to bypass a security station then the SMG is going to be a lot easier to lug around than an Ares Alpha.

[deek]

Well, you can't Quick Draw anything bigger than a pistol-sized weapon, so unless you give SMGs the benefit of using that rule (which could be good idea to balance)...

The Ready Weapon action is already in SR4, but I don't know how widely it is used. There are several actions that revolve around combat that many may not use, but you should always have to ready your weapon with a simple action before just firing it off.

So, if you house-ruled the SMG into allowing Quick Draw, then you could get an extra simple action in the first IP which wouldn't be available to an assault rifle...I think that fits in the "wieldiness" category.

I have often contemplated imperialus' rule on suppression...it'd make SMGs a little better in that regard.

Again, I think we all need to keep in context that the only difference you basically have is a DV and AP of 1, so you probably don't want to stack too many house-rules on SMGs.

Oddly enough (at least by a couple of prior responses), I have not had any players stray away from SMGs. Most like the idea of pistols and a few step up to SMGs if they want something more powerful. I don't think I have ever had a player get into assault rifles...and even if they found some, I'd think they would just sell them. The group I run for really like to keep a low profile and even with a pistol, add the right ammo and you are still doing a ton of damage with good rolls, so then I think it ends up being more a style issue than just squeezing out an extra point of DV...

[Ed_209a]

Off the top of my head, perhaps SMGs should get more benefits for sound suppression, since there are many more practical subsonic pistol rounds than rifle rounds. Or take SMGs as the benchmark and reduce suppression bonuses for larger weapons.

SMGs should be more controllable than ARs. I like the idea of giving SMGs free RC, though I'm not gonna say how much is right w/o more thought.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Thanee]

Concealability is the biggest bonus over Assault Rifles.

They pack (almost) the punch of a full AR, while they are reasonably small still.
While you can't put them into your pocket, you can easily hide them in a backpack or briefcase.

Best weapon type in the book, if you ask me.

Bye
Thanee

[Jaid]

well, unless you consider an SMG to be a "heavy automatic weapon", it's looking like SR3 didn't allow it. at least, not in the basic book anyways.

don't know about SR2 or SR1 (would that be just SR? i mean, it's not like they called it SR1 when it came out or anything...), but it seems weapon accessories do change... the SR3 gas vent could be placed into any kind of gun, AFAICT, whereas you can only install it into machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns in SR4.

[Spike]

I don't have my book handy to look up 'ready weapon' actions, but that would be a solution. It is possible to walk around with an Assault rifle at the ready, but it's next to impossible to perform any other action. As most SMG's are designed to be useable one handed (though not necessarily recommended), this leaves the other hand available to do 'other things' without unreadying the weapon.

If I get stuck GMing SR rather than playing it, I can see the looks of frustration now on my players faces as I ask them to spend their first combat action 'readying' their bulky rifles all the time... :D

[Moon-Hawk]

[Hida Tsuzua]

What about modifying the shooting in melee rules? Make the penalty is greater for Assault Rifles and less so for SMGs and pistols. Then rule that two people at extreme close quarters and actively defending themselves (i.e. still get to roll their defense) counts for "shooting in melee." That way SMGs are good choice for close quarter combat.

[Spike]

I don't think that's a stretch at all. In fact, many of the weirder wilder stories about over the top shadowrunning could probably be ignored by simply applying that 'ready weapon' rule.

Want to throw a grenade? ready it.

Want to switch from your poncy pistol to a manly assualt rifle? Ready it and then some!

I know I am guilty of lazily allowing players to stomp around swaping weapons left right and inbetween, but recently I've been following this sort of rule much more closely, and the games are actually more fun for everyone. It can make a challenge out of an otherwise easy fight.

[deek]

[Jack Kain]

Except for the AK-97 and the FN HAR all the assault rifles are all forbidden while the SMGs are restricted.
Remember not all guns are created equal, different jobs would require different levels of firepower.

And going one handed is of great use. While A troll may be able to fire an Aries Alpha one handed its unlikely a human will be able to and having a free hand to hold a melee weapon is useful. Or maybe a free hand to open a door hold on to a ladder etc.


Take a look at the Igrim Smartgun X
SMG built in smartlink, gas vent AND sound suppressor. It has a innate recoil of 2(3)
The HK 227X also has a built in gas vent system and sound suppressor.

Several of the SMGs come with a lot of free accessories and are still cheaper then assault rifles.
Hell the sound suppressor is illegal in SR and yet you can get them legally on many SMG's

[Mistwalker]

[Clyde]

It's also a bit "realistic" that SMGs don't have a lot of advantages over assault rifles on paper. Real life units are switching to very short barreled assault rifles in place of the smgs they'd previously used to get more firepower. Really, the SMG's days as a battlefield weapon were over in World War II - the invention of the assault rifle superseded them.

Speaking personally, I really like the "Ready Weapon" idea. Your assault rifle/grenade launcher/sniper rifle won't be ready if you have to squeeze it through a doorway or ventilation shaft, get our of your car with it, etc. The SMG, on the other hand, will be good to go. Dual wielding/One handed wielding is a nice plus, as well.

In games I've run, the SMG has proven to be pretty popular. It conceals well enough (long coat, partial light, etc.) and it's got plenty of punch with the ability to provide practical suppressive fire. The assault rifles are just too big, while the machine pistols lack range and punch. The low cost and free accessories help, too.

[X-Kalibur]

I'd argue that grenades are another benefit of the SMG as well. Because you can wield it one-handed, you can use the other hand to lob a grenade without having to "unready" the weapon. I'm a big fan of grenades though.