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 SMGs, HUH, good gawd, y'all |
  Mar 16 2007, 10:22 PM
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#26
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jacked in  Group: Admin Posts: 8,006 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463  |
Ares Alpha ;)
Bye Thanee |
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Mar 16 2007, 10:31 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Also and F legality code and good luck hiding it. Compare it to hiding an SMG or Machine Pistol and some grenades. |
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Mar 17 2007, 12:43 AM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
But most ar's have a grenade launcher anyway. as a side note, do you use the heavy weapons skill for undermounted grenade launchers? automatics doesn't make seance but strictly speaking that is wat RAW seas. |
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Mar 17 2007, 01:54 AM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
But the underbarrel grenade launcher cannot choose between firing out a fragmentation, high explosive, flashbang, smoke, or thermal smoke grenade. It's all about having options. Although maybe what we need is subsonic ammo for pistols and SMGs (that aren't obviously chambered for rifle rounds, IE the AK-97 and the XM-30 Carbine) that gives a +AP but gives even further penalties to listen checks against it. |
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Mar 17 2007, 01:56 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
According to RAW, you do use the Heavy Weapons skill for grenade launchers.
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Mar 17 2007, 03:02 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
While I'm not a gun nut and can't comment on the realism, I like the idea of subsonic pistol (&SMG, obviously) ammo. +2AP, 30Y or so, +2 or even +4 against perception checks.
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Mar 17 2007, 04:00 AM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The reality is that they are inferior to assault rifles in every way. (Other then concealability, or where you need a round that has less destructive terminal ballistics than the typical intermediate rifle round. As an example of this, consider a shootout on a submarine.) Their inferiority is why fewer and fewer tactical teams use them as primary weapons. So you don't need to fix anything. Pat Rogers has an article on this topic in the current issue of SWAT. He points out that they are a lot cooler looking and more fun to shoot, but in practical terms they are a poor choice unless you fall into a few special cases. |
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Mar 17 2007, 04:38 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You can rule that, but it isn't true. Sound Suppresors for ARs and MMGs. I would agree that silenced SMGs can be very effective indeed, much quieter overall than a rifle firing supersonic bullets. And the Alpha is a bullpup. So you're looking at a 26-30 inch long gun, vs 22-31 inches for a silenced MP-5 SMG (depending on model). It's not going to hide in a briefcase like some of the mini-SMGs, but you can hide it or carry it just as easily as an SMG. |
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Mar 17 2007, 07:44 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Instead of denying them to assault rifles make them less effective -3 to perception instead of -4 when applied to assault rifles.
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Mar 17 2007, 08:09 AM
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#35
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,006 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Hey, that's my argument!! (Was just commenting on the free hand... ;)) Bye Thanee |
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Mar 17 2007, 06:09 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,627 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
While the rules don't lay it all down, you as the GM are responsible for making sure your players don't try concealing assault rifles in bikinis. Now that's an extreme example, but you also aren't hiding an assault rifle in a jacket. You could conceal one in a long coat....
But then try sitting down. Plus a long coat has a worse armor value. Also it should take a higher degree of success for people to detect SMGs as SMGs. If you just make the threshold you'd know that there is something gunlike there, but you couldn't tell it isn't just the heavy pistol that guy has a permit for(for the Uzi type SMGs). Whereas with an assault rifle you'd know they have something that would have to be a rifle/shotgun/grenade launcher and it's time to call security. In short if your adventure is a dungeon crawl in disguise assault rifles might be the weapon of choice. If it's the more cloak and daggery stuff that SR excells at than SMGs are in order. |
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Mar 17 2007, 06:23 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
The one trend in military/law enforcement nowdays is the use of carbines, which shadowrun does not include at all. Currently the US Army is heavily using the M4 carbine because of ease of use in urban environments. Carbines have a marginally reduced range and stopping power compared to an Assult Rifle, but greatly exceed that of a SMG. They also use the same ammo as Assult Rifles. I liked the old SR3 rules for creating your own firearms because these were easy to create simply give it a reduced barrel, concealabilty, and certainly don't give in an increase in power. However the creat-your-own gun rules where horribly subject to abuse and just about every GM I know banned them when SR3 was still played. But they were valuable for GMs to creat new guns for release on the open market in their campaigns. Hopefully in the Arsenal book, which is upcoming, they will include carbines. Anyone have any insight on this?
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Mar 17 2007, 06:25 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
A side note, is autofire really worth it? A narrow burst gives you almost exactly the same benefit as a called shot so fore a skilled user that is probably the better option.
Of corse you can't use rc on a called shot and it takes up a free action but on the other hand penaltys don't carry over to the next shot and you can use it to get through armor witch you can't do with atofire. Even flachet rondos give you the same damage mod as a short burst without a dicepool penalty. |
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Mar 17 2007, 10:18 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
Recoil compensation cancels out the penalties on a short, narrow burst. It doesn't cancel out called shot penalties. Wide bursts may be the best way of putting some damage on a lot of opponents: high reaction types or folks going full defense. Better to hit for a little damage than to miss.
Shadowrun SMGs may not be 9mm, either. They may be more akin to PDWs like the P90 or H&K MP7. There may be a place in a modern arsenal for a compact, intermediate power weapon provided armor penetration is possible. Current generation, 9mm SMGs can be stopped by Level III or IIIA body armor (which is soft armor - no plates). Shadowrun SMGs, on the other hand, seem to have little trouble ripping you up despite your armored vest. |
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Mar 17 2007, 11:46 PM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Level IIIA is the heaviest, as well as by far the most common, type of flexible body armor and can, as you say, defeat any non-armor piercing 9x19mm loads even from long barrels. Level III is rigid body armor rated to defeat 5.56x45mm M855 FMJs, 7.62x51mm M80 FMJs, 12 gauge slugs and various other rifle loads -- and, obviously, anything you're going to fire out of a P90 or MP7.
BTW, could we all together agree not to use the term "stopping power" when it comes to small arms? When talking about wounds caused in humans and lethality, I figure using the words "wounds" and "lethal" is the best bet. |
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Mar 18 2007, 12:25 AM
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#41
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
it's worthless argument anyway, you can't tell how many or what kind of bullets it's going to take to kill someone. until you actually shoot them, it's completely unknown. |
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Mar 18 2007, 12:31 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Big wounds kill people sooner, on average. Optimally it'd be best to talk only about the wounds, and even then give qualifiers for what part of what kind of human is hit at what angle at what range, but at least there's some logic in saying that a .308 150gr JHP at 2800fps is, ceteris paribus, more lethal than a 7.62x39mm 123gr FMJ at 2350fps. "Stopping power" is just bullshit.
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Mar 18 2007, 04:09 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
An awful lot of "stopping power" is the victim simply fainting or going into shock after being hit. The human body is marvelous at sabotaging itself.
The only I know to model that in SR4 is for all gunshot wounds to have a Body-resisted component that does physical damage, and a Willpower-resisted component that does stun damage. I'd port to another system before I went to all that bother. |
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Mar 18 2007, 04:33 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Blowing someone to shreds with a 25mm+ HE round tends to be pretty effective at stopping them. Below that it's largely bullet placement, luck as to what got hit as the bullet passed through the person, and the motivation of the guy who got shot. Big wound channels tend to be luckier than tiny wound channels, but it's probably the least important factor (within rational limits anyhow). |
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Mar 18 2007, 07:40 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As killing someone usually is. :) |
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Mar 18 2007, 08:34 AM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Some people take a while to figure out that they are dead, and that can result in a suboptimal outcome. For example, Micheal Platt in a famous gunfight, who took at least 2 unsurvivable wounds before charging and shooting 3 FBI agents (including one of the two who had fatally wounded him) before getting incapacitated by a head shot. That's the critical difference between physiological incapacitation (what most people mean by "stopping power") and lethality. So, no, killing them isn't always sufficient. :( |
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Mar 18 2007, 08:53 AM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Having a fatal wound does not equal being dead. Do you disagree that people who are brain dead are not by definition effective combatants?
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Mar 18 2007, 09:25 AM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
In Shadowrun, or in real life? 8) |
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Mar 18 2007, 03:53 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Just noticed this...
I ran into this exact situation in my last game session. I used to think the same thing myself. My char started trying out -4 die/+4 DV called shots, and the target dodged all of them because he was getting more successes on his reaction check than I did on my reaction+firearms-mods check. True, I would have ripped him up if I hit with a -4 die/+4 DV called shot, but I had to hit first. From now on I will save my called shots for sluggish or unaware targets. Everyone else gets bursts, because ammo is cheaper than medical care. |
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Mar 18 2007, 07:28 PM
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#50
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 8,705 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
So why not call a shot on a burst? |
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