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 SMGs, HUH, good gawd, y'all |
 Mar 18 2007, 07:29 PM
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#51
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Old Man of the North  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 8,705 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463  |
Edit: Call a shot on a wide burst. Sounds freaky and counterintuitive, I know.
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Mar 18 2007, 09:55 PM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
RAW doesn't forbid it but I've never meat a GM who would let that stand.
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Mar 19 2007, 02:43 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
I'd let that stand. Just my 2 :nuyen:
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Mar 19 2007, 03:05 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
It would sound and look pretty stupid, but then so does our Sam, so that's not a compelling argument against inclusion. I'd reluctantly allow it.
I have changed called shot for damage to -2 per +1 DV, though. Still good against wimps, flatfoots and big trolls, but not the fight-ender it was before. |
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Mar 19 2007, 05:13 AM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 18-March 07 Member No.: 11,252 |
I have to disagree with this bit. When I was in the Infantry we used to lug our assault rifles down very small, claustrophobic tunnels that were just wide and tall enough for your average Soldier wearing Battle Order to crawl down them in FIBUA/CQB training (MOUT/CQB for the American Servicemen). We didn't like it, but we could do it. Basically the issue comes down to concealability what with the easy ways to solve assault rifle length and size issues in close environments (C7A2 with its 6 position stock comes to mind, when I was in we would just rest the stock over our shoulder for room clearing). Of course the "six-poz" was adopted mainly for fitting in and out of APC doors and to compensate for the thickness of body armour, but Infantry always find at least three uses for each bit 'o' kit, or else it's considered "under utilized". ;) As far as the SMG istself being less or more, sure you could hide it and it would be a bit faster into action from "stand easy", but really the big plus is the fact that the current batch of pistol calibre SMGs apparently have better penetration and stability than the super short barrelled (10.5 inch and less) ARs used in their stead. Regardless, I am not volunteering to stand in front of either! SMGs do have a role to play, just more for police/CT/Covert work than battlefield applications. |
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Mar 19 2007, 01:28 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
I have enjoyed this thread enormously!!! Really good points.
In our groups' game, the difference between smgs and assault rifles is more psychological than just rules. SMG= urban combat where I expect heavy opposition. May be concealed until the drek hits the fan. "These yakuza with katanas and smgs are going to be tough." Assault Rifle=battlefield, all pulls are off. Concealment is unimportant because grenades don't have sound suppresion. "We might want to avoid these APCs and storm the village to rescue the doctor from all those shedim before the air strike arrives." Both quotes from past games. Pistols are the most common weapon used. Cheers |
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Mar 19 2007, 02:28 PM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 16-March 07 Member No.: 11,243 |
One thing that people tend to forget is that Assault rifles with their larger cartridges generally (not a rule) are louder than SMGs. Sound overall is something that is commonly forgotten in RPGs.
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Mar 19 2007, 07:03 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Outdoors, gunfire is loud and will screw up your hearing over time. Inside a building all gunfire is painfully loud. Assault rifles are much louder, but after the first few rounds of gunfire nobody is hearing anything for a while. With assault rifles you are more likely to get seriously screwed up permanently, but they are all bad. Smart shadowrunners invest in low profile ear protection that they can leave in all the time. Like these: Electronic Earplugs The guy I know who uses these walks around shooters all day without any issues outdoors, but does add muffs indoors as the indoor sound is so much louder that he's worried about long term damage when running classes through shoot houses. |
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Mar 19 2007, 07:38 PM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Those can be made in SR4. Just get earbuds or headphones with select sound filters. I wouldn't grant them the +2 bonus to resist sonic damage offered by implanted dampeners though.
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Mar 19 2007, 07:48 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
With one of those special cases being the need for sound suppression. A truly suppressed rifle firing subsonic 5.56x45mm ammo will be pushing a ~62 grain projectile at around 1000fps. Compare that to conventional M855 ammunition, pushing a 62 grain projectile at about 3000fps. At that low velocity, the projectile is not very likely to fragment at all, which will result in a very narrow permanent wound cavity. On the flip side, try suppressing a .45 ACP SMG, like the HK UMP. Your 230grain ammuntion will still only have about 990fps of muzzle velocity out of a 8" barrel...that's still in the subsonic range. Since the projectile is already subsonic, you don't need to use velocity controlled ammunition when fitting the UMP with a can. Quiet as can be, and quite lethal against unarmored targets. And still a good bit shorter than an M4 w/ a can. There is still a significant niche for SMGs, moreso in the shadows. And especially if you need to be quiet. |
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Mar 19 2007, 08:01 PM
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#61
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
As far as I know, nobody expects assault rifles suppressors to be be really silent. The marketing literature is mostly focused on reducing the potential for hearing damage and getting more effective communication due to not having to scream. As a secondary effect they also make it much harder to locate the shooter by sound or muzzle flash. They are designed to fire normal ammo. I'm not sure if you could get a standard AR to run on subsonic ammo, that's a huge change to a very complex harmonic system. If you wanted that I'd suggest silencing a 22 rifle, because that's about what you have. But I think the USMC also keeps some of the colt 9mm suppressed AR-15s around for those sorts of jobs, but they were found to be pretty useless past 100 meters. |
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Mar 19 2007, 09:31 PM
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#62
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
Well I don't think hearing loss was the original concern with SMGs being quieter than ARs. Of corse for stealth purposes, without suppression both are arbitrarily loud (firing of a streatline special tells evereone in 3 blocks where you are and what is going on).
Silent is a relative term when it coms to guns. You may not know where the shooter is (more than half the point) and you may not even identify the noes as a gunshot but it is still clearly audible if not out and out LOUD. |
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Mar 19 2007, 11:31 PM
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#63
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
[QUOTE=kzt,Mar 19 2007, 08:01 PM] [QUOTE=TheOneRonin,Mar 19 2007, 12:48 PM]
I'm not sure if you could get a standard AR to run on subsonic ammo, that's a huge change to a very complex harmonic system. If you wanted that I'd suggest silencing a 22 rifle, because that's about what you have. [/QUOTE] You can. it's called ".300 whisper" subsonic round approx comparable to a .45 shorter range, obviously. but a lot quieter..300 whisper obviously not standard. but w/e. I'm sure you could underload a 5.56 and use a silencer to get a quieter round, but you'd have cycling problems. especially on standard m4s/16s stupid direct impingement system, short stroke piston FTW |
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