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 Landmates in shadowrun? |
 Mar 16 2007, 06:59 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814  |
Yeah, as I am reading more and thinking about it, I think it is better to address it as "wearable" armor, so you wouldn't want to use any of the vehicle rules (even though I suggested one before).
I mean, in the SR world, with drones and riggers, there is really no point in trying to make a vehicle out of the suit. I mean, the main idea, IMO, is to have a powered suit for a metahuman, so you'd want to make it as much like armor as possible, just a little better and scarier:) So, going back to the initial 20/20, that may not be so bad if its Ballistic/Impact, as those are not automatic successes. And then I wouldn't allow it to stack with other armor...basically the "soldier" is just inside the armor in his long johns... That puts us back to a little boost in strength, some RC, probably leave movement along (as the extra weight of the armor would be offset by its "powered" nature). You get some vision/hearing enhancement...and then we'd just need to figure out the power situation...duration and the like. |
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Mar 16 2007, 06:59 PM
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#27
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Sure, using vehicle for combat is good for lots of obvious reasons, and you listed some of them. But I don't see anywhere in your reasoning why the thing needs to be shaped like a person. And if the guy is crammed in a tiny little area like a battlepod, it's not powered armor anymore, it's just a walking tank, anthroform or not. Vehicles are great. Tanks are great. Even walking ones. But that's not powered armor anymore, that's my point. It's not walking tanks that I have a problem with, it's trying to make "powered armor" that is like a walking tank, but somehow different so as to be more AWESOME. If you want to sit in a large walker go for it, but you don't need any fancy "powered armor" rules for it, it's just a vehicle. That's my point. I think. As such, if you want powered armor, it's best starting with armor and adding minor tweaks. IMO |
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Mar 16 2007, 07:04 PM
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#28
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
There are plenty of advantages for non-humanoid is shape. So I can see using vehicle for many cases for armor. I think it's best to see what the situation is for the user, as you've stated above. Those who actually 'wear' the armor should instead use the armor rules. While those who are 'piloting' the 'suit' being more of a vehicle. I see power armor (for those anime fans) might be those of Bubblegum Crisis, while those more of vehicle are the ones like in Votoms (Heavy Gear). For those battletech folks, Elementals are the power armor you wear, and the protomechs (and locusts) are the power armor you pilot.
Yes, there are exceptions and such, but it's nice to have some way of distinguishing between the two. |
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Mar 16 2007, 07:16 PM
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#29
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
We seem to be reaching a consensus. You and I at least. :-) 20/20 is still higher than I think I would go, since full body armor with helmet is only 12/10, I'd probably be hesitant to go above 16/14 but whatever, make it as awesome as works for your game. We're bound to have subtly different visions. Also, since it's powered you could treat the armor value as lower (earlier I suggested 1/2 of it's true value) for purposes of determining agility and reaction penalties. The long johns are a great idea. They're made out of handwavium and must be in contact with the wearer's skin for very important reasons, so no armor underneath. ;-) The bonus to strength is also very much dependent on how awesome you want it to be. I'd probably go with anywhere from +0 to +4, but let it break the attribute cap. Recoil Compensation I'd probably say 3-6 range, anywhere between a cyberarm gyromount and a real gyromount. I agree with you about leaving movement rate alone. Why go there? Maybe give it a bonus to athletics tests, like +2, which would indirectly help movement a little. Maybe. Certain tests, anyway. Not gymnastics. :-D And I would definitely give a large bonus to fatigue tests, since that's one of the primary purposes of powered armor. The vision/hearing enhancements are just part of the helmet, no need to invent any special rules there. The power source is your last chance of controlling PCs who get their hands on this. Obviously it needs to last long enough to be cool, but exactly how long that is depends very much on how awesome you want it to be. Corollary to that is what happens when the batteries die? Well the armor value doesn't change, but now they face the full value for their agility penalties. That right there is going to slow most PCs down quite a bit, possibly even stopping them in their tracks. They lose recoil, strength, and other bonuses, obviously. I'm not sure it really needs to be any more harsh than that. It would weigh a lot, but that delves into the realm of encumbrance and carrying capacity rules, and I don't even want to go there. If you feel it needs more than that, give it an additional Agility/Reaction/Strength penalty of a couple points to represent the extra load. |
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Mar 16 2007, 07:23 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Space Marine Powered armor anyone? Maybe throw in some Terminator suits for good measure?
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Mar 16 2007, 07:27 PM
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#31
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
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Mar 16 2007, 07:40 PM
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#32
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Cool pic! That is a good example of a small vehicle, IMO. Obviously his arm and leg movements don't correspond to the vehicles, since even if the pilot's limbs are in the vehicle's, he can't possibly reach past it's elbows/knees. The pilot's legs must be in the lower "abdominal" section of the vehicle, because if they were in the vehicle's legs then it's "hip" is bending forward right about where the pilots knee (or maybe shin) would be. Ouch. That is an anthroform vehicle that the pilot rides in, and definitely not what I think of when I think powered armor. I do, however, think that is is an extremely cool anthroform weapons platform, which due to it's internal pilot can shut off wireless and be immune to hacking. |
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Mar 16 2007, 07:58 PM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
That pic is just like a host of power armor called landmates designed by the artist Shirow.
Oh yeah, I found this from a quick yahoo search. lol. obviously it was made for the older SR rules. http://archive.dumpshock.com/tech/military...y/landmate.html |
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Mar 16 2007, 08:02 PM
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#34
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Other than reading like REAL ULTIMATE POWER and giving them a inexplicably long damage track, it treats them like an exotic vehicle that requires it's own skill. Sounds fine to me, in principle. (other than being ludicrously overpowered, of course) |
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Mar 16 2007, 08:11 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
The proper use of "power armor' in the game is either as a prototype to be stolen from an R&D facility or as something the Corps use to protect really high value targets. Runners should have to sweat blood to get their hands on one, you can't just loot it from the fallen, and I doubt they'd make it in troll size.
Here's the thing: Given the bio-feedback requirements in order to fuction properly with 'powered movement' it's going to have to be carefully fitted. As proprietary technology (prototypes...) it may require a non-standard datajack to plug in. It's going to be maintenance heavy even when NOT getting shot up constantly, and then there is the issue of power. Living Steel had an entire book dedicated to their power armor, I think there had to be a maintence team for every squad, and a squad was only three guys. That aside, I may just write up some rules for this tonight and post them... which means I'll be using it if/when I run a game. :D |
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Mar 16 2007, 08:14 PM
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#36
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I agree with what you're saying, but bear in mind: Once you put this in your game, and the PCs know about it, it doesn't matter how proprietary it is, how much blood it takes, or how difficult you make it to get one, they will not stop trying until they are dead to get one. So you either let them have one as the culmination of several runs and tons of hard work, or you kill them, because they will not stop any other way. :D |
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Mar 16 2007, 08:49 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Actually you can make landmates useless to PCs and still use them. Give them a power system that they can't recharge. The landmates from Starship Troopers Ricos Roughnecks series had the power to last a few hours I think. I was nasty in combat but a pain in the ass.
If they are primarily military then it works out because they will have a supply line. |
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Mar 16 2007, 10:29 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
The problem with "powered armor" similiar to mecha is that they are all too big. Landmates were quite large if you remember Appleseed well. Good luck infiltrating a building with it.
Even power armor a la Fallout (best game ever! after planescape...) is likely to be loud and cumbersome and draw LOTS of unwanted attention. As cool as they might be... not worth it. Think about how hard it would be to walk/drive wearing even security armor (Full Body Armor in SR4 cannot be mil-spec. The stats are too low) without everyone noticing you. Liability at best. I love mecha as much as the next guy, but I don't see them having a place in SR. At most I could see servo assisted arm/leg braces that give strength bonuses when worn for purposes of lifting. |
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Mar 16 2007, 10:33 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
The beauty of it is, when the players start jumping through hoops just to get their hands on it... and they will some day do so...
... they will eventually find its next to useless for most Runs. Seriously, even if they want to do a matrix style 'assualt the building' it's a bad choice. Sure, they're immune to most small arms, but once the second line security forces arrive, it's strictly big guns all around. This stuff isn't subtle, and it isn't an 'I win button' either. It's like giving the players the panther assualt cannon. Sure, it's deadly, but if every time they pull it out the Corps start pullign their's out? Yeah... :D |
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Mar 16 2007, 10:33 PM
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#40
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
But in AppleSeed, they did! :P |
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Mar 17 2007, 12:00 AM
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#41
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
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Mar 17 2007, 01:51 AM
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#42
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
In the appleseed world, see the third book, they had what they called orc armor. More in line with worn powered armor. It was used for infiltration/assault on this French manor and it was stealthy. |
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Mar 17 2007, 11:57 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
like i said, that was an example of a vehicle that you ride in, and i don't consider it a powered armor. and like i said, it has some ridiculously huge advantages over just being a suit of armor that you wear. as far as why it has to be humanoid, i would say mainly because there are very few places that a humanoid form cannot take you. you can walk, climb, swim, jump, and even dig, albeit somewhat slowly. the big advantage to anthroform vehicles, however, is that any time you would normally call for some sort of athletics test for a person (4 separate skills, with separate specialisations not applicable to all situations), the anthroform vehicle's driver merely needs to make a pilot anthroform (biped) check... meaning instead of 4 skills, he's using 1 skill, with a single specialisation that applies to every single check he makes. and if the vehicle picks up an MMG and starts firing it, it uses the same skill as any other gun, be it mounted on the vehicle or fired from a weapon held in the vehicle's hands. the humanoid vehicle can also manipulate objects in the same manner as a human could, so for example whereas a vectored thrust vehicle would have to shoot down the door or ram through it, a humanoid vehicle could just open the door the same way you or i could. it can use tools and manipulate objects in the world much more effectively than, say, the wheels of a car, the tracks of a tank, the wings of a jet, or a helicopter's rotor blades. |
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Mar 17 2007, 03:16 PM
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#44
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, in Volume 1, Denuan used a full-blown Guges to sneak up on Briareos... at home. ;) |
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Mar 18 2007, 04:34 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
Even after seeing all these examples and the vehicle vs. armor discussion I can't help but see something two versions of powered armor. The first is from d20 starwars their stormtrooper armor. There are better powered armor in d20SW but it makes sense. It has the battle helmet display, resperator, commlink, thing. It is also sealed and has standard fire resistant, insulation and nonconductivity. It requires powered armor proficiency. Without proficiency you have -2 dex -2 str. it is also the most protective and least cumbersum of the powered armors.
The other is Master Chief from Halo. Basicly the same as above but with all kinds of mini servos or something to give increased strength, reaction, agility, probably a gyro system. As I remember he was upgraded before he ever put the suit on but it has been a while. Neither of these fall into the vehicle category. And are basicly advanced Full Body Armor with all the upgrades. |
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Mar 18 2007, 08:06 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
We are the Exosquad.
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Mar 18 2007, 08:28 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
Oh ya, those too. But I do kinda see them more as anthromorphic vehicles than personal armor. I guess the line between armor and vehicle that I see is armor is worn and completely dependant on you for movement. Vehicles move themselves with input from a pilot.
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Mar 18 2007, 08:49 AM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Storm Trooper armor! It doesn't even stop the occasional pistol shot, and nobody ever misses anyone wearing it! In SR I'd give it a +4 to be hit and -4 to your body roll. Thanks, but no thanks. |
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Mar 18 2007, 09:43 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
That is why I said from d20 starwars, not the starwars movies. Also, I'm not saying it should be mass produced in SR just that the idea fits how I see powered armor.
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Mar 19 2007, 04:09 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
No, man! Elemental armor is the way to go! One claw hand, one laser hand, 2 short range missiles and a jet pack!
Of course, you had to be a genetically engineered mutant to use it well, but those are the breaks. That might be a good way to make it less available to PCs. Require certain stats to use it, like a minimum strength and dexterity, of a certain metatype (preferably a rare one, like a giant from the SR3 companion). And, if you recall, you pretty much had to be a genetic clone to use storm trooper armor . "I can't see a thing out of this helmet!" Troopers in the movies were more likely to gun down their own than hit any enemy anyway. |
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