[X] My Assistant

[Mistwalker]

The forec of the spell has nothing to do with resisting the spell

Spell resistance has to do with spellcasting+magic vs attribute(+counterspelling).

Force does come into play if the spell is not completely resisted, as it is the base damage for the spell.

[TheOOB]

Hmm, with direct combat spells I allow first the opposed test of Spellcasting+Magic agienst Willpower/Body + Counterspelling to determine if the spell hits and if so the DV, and then a Body test to reduce the damage. It's not exactally how it works in the rules, but it gives the defender a bit of a chance and makes direct combat spells a bit less overwhelming.

[Ravor]

Well call me strange, but I'd consider taking Physical Drain which can not be magically healed as a bit of a balancing factor for the added power, sure a Mage can overcast and throw what basically amounts to Magical Tac-Nukes, but once he's done then its a hell of alot harder to "reload" him then it is a Rocket Launcher or Cannon, which in most cases will do roughtly as much damage.

As for not giving anything on the defense side, although it admittedly won't help mundanes without magical support, if I remember correctly Counterspelling did get a huge boost in power as well, and using it as Spell Defense is something that even an otherwise pitiful Magic 1 wannabe can do just as well as your arch-wizard with a of Magic 6+.



As an example, if your fairly typical 'uber mage' with Magic 6 and Logic/Willpower 5 throws his Force 12 Manaball tac-nukes he is looking at a Drain Value of 8. The odds of him resisting are thus:

[The Jopp]

Oh, i agree that the high-drain spells have a lot of physical drain when overcasting but it is impossible for almost anyone to survive a F12 ”bolt” of any kind. usually a defender looks at 3-4D6 against most of the time X3 that amount in attacking dice.

The stunbolt for example is a very good example of a “too easy to use” spell as you only take 5P in drain at F12. 5P with 10-12 D6 plus possible foci. And most people have only 10 boxes of stun – THEN you factor in net successes to see how much MORE damage you take…

For some reason I think overcasting is too easy.

[Jack Kain]

How about this not only is the drain physical damage, You take a penalty to your drain resist test equal to the amount of overcasting your doing.

IE: If you cast a force 12 manabolt, (your magic being 6) you take a -6 penalty to your drain resist test.
If your drain resist roll drops below zero you are unable to cast the spell.



Other ideas. (pick one or combine)
1: The magic resist quality only effects harmful spells not all spells.

2:Increase the drain on direct combat spells and by 2.
Decrease the drain on all indirect combat spells by 2.

3: The limit on overcasting is your magicx1.5(round up) not x2. Thus if your magic is 5 your max force of spell is 8.

4: A point of edge must be spent to overcast at all, While overcasting you may not spend edge on the spell casting roll or drain resist.

[ornot]

I think F12 is meant to be pretty damn potent. So it is not unreasonable for it to drop pretty much all mundanes. Frankly if your mage is tossing off F12 stunbolts routinely, even at only 5P drain he's going to hurt himself in the long run. Plus the signature for those spells lasts hours, unless the mage takes precious time to cleanse the area.

[MaxHunter]

In my game actually direct combat spells are at a +1 drain value.

Rationale: so that people like indirect combat spells better, to make frying Joe's head a little more costly, because manabolts are lame.

IMO The samurai with the ares alpha and exex is just as much a killer, but the difference is that there is not much a mundane can do to soup up willpower. (no full dodge, no cyberware, nada de nada) Mundanes can improve reaction and Body in many different ways...

Cheers,

Max

[Ravor]

True, a Force 12 spell is basically a magical Tac-nuke and whoever is unlucky enough to be on the receiving end is very unlikely to survive short of pulling a 'Hand of God'. Of course, I could say the same about a well aimed Panther Cannon shot, a Missile strike, a RC compensated Full narrow burst from an APDS or Ex-Ex loaded Ares Alpha, running over someone with a large truck at high speeds, or planting a large ammount of explosives into the guy's bedroom so its not like Mages are the only ones able to one-shot people when they pull out their biggest and baddest ability or tactic so I don't really see a problem with it as in the situations I mentioned, the same goon is just as dead and I don't see people clammering that mundanes are too powerful and need to be NERFed because of them.

Perhaps a simpler way to phrase it is to slightly alter fistandantilus3.0's sig:

"Force 12 Manaball," by the way, is a Shadowrun code word meaning "this isn't a combat, it's a combat in which you are expected to die.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I'd hate to be the mage that had to soak the drain though.

...could easily become a case of Mutually Assured Destruction.

[fistandantilus4....]

[lorechaser]

[Jack Kain]

It all comes up to what do you get for defense?

Direct Combatspell, willpower or body + edge + counter spelling if available.
(Its a safe bet the target would use edge in such a deadly situation.

indirect combat spells
Reaction, Body, half-Armor with the possibility of elemental protection mods,
counter spelling and edge are also possible.

When alls said and done the direct combat spells are the hardest to defense.

Perhaps to discourage the overcasting having Lieutenant Grunts with magic a bit more common. Having one of the grunts turn out to be a magician with 4 dice in counter spelling and specialization against combat spells.
You can also bet the grunt team should spend there edge at that point to defend against a mana/stunball

If that happens to the magician a few times you can bet every time he spots a group of enemies he'll wonder. *Am I going to have my high force spell screwed over by a counter spelling specialized grunt?, should I assense and see if one of them is magical or should I delay? or just go for it now*

You don't even need to go that far, if you know the first group of grunts will be flat-lined by a F10 stunball have the second group HEAR it and burst through the door guns blazing.

I've found through my DMing of D&D if you have the players cheep shot blow up in there face even once. They'll think strongly about trying it again or not.

[laughingowl]

Its come up in other threads but my solution.

Direct combat spells:

Base damage equals the lesser of Force or Magic.

If Force > magic, each net hit increases base damage by one up to force.


So

magic 5 mage casts for 10 manabolt:

Base damage (initial) = 5 (magic)

If he gets one net success:
Base damage = 5 (initial) + 1 (net hits) (capped at force)
Damage taken = 6 (modified base) + net hits.

Above mage gets 9 sucesses.

Base damage = 5 (magic) (unchaged from above)

Modified base damage = 5 (initial) + 5 (net hits with modified base capped at force).

Damage taken = 19 (modified base) + net hits


Basically making it so that overcasting direct combat spells is not an automatic increase in base damage, but rather a potential increase in damage.

Overcasting is quite painful for somebody getting hit with it; however, it is not a insta-kill unless the skill of the magic is also enough to grant several net sucesses.


peace

[ornot]

That is making things excessively complicated. I honestly don't see what's wrong with the system as is. If the mage takes the risk to overcast to that extent why shouldn't they get more bang for their buck?

I don't think the system needs changing, although it might be worth houseruling the drain values. The drain for indirect spells seems a little high compared to direct spells. I can't really speak for their effect in game as any mages I've had seem to have the same concerns and load up on lower drain direct spells for their offensive powers.

[Cold-Dragon]

I can think of an insidious method of counter-bolting...it's part role play, part mechanics, and part 'make somebody swear at you for doing something so simple'. ;)

And no, it's not use the GM technique of 'you can't do it now' or modifying drain or bringing own hell.

But the last one is similar....

Care to guess?

[pestulens]

direct and indirect spells have the same drain value. Now many direct spells are mana spells witch get -1DV and most indirect spells are elemental effect witch get +2DV
their isn't a lot of reason to learn an indirect spell that isn't area but a fireball and lightningbolt are both pretty useful. (Remember to take them as limited spells thowe, not mutch of a boost but every little bit helps with DVs that high)

[laughingowl]

[TheOOB]

[Glyph]

[knasser]

I really think that a lot of people have not adjusted to the shift in values between 3rd and 4th edition. If you look at the conversion rules between the editions, you find that the mage with Magic 6 in 4th edition, would be an initiate with Magic 9 in 3rd edition. Magic 6 is that good! Anyone who gets a Force 12 chucked at them can be expected to die.

But compare it to the samurai who fires two grenades in the same time it takes the mage throws his manabolt and with no risk of injuring himself doing so.

In mage vs. sammie discussions, people tend to go around in circles because the truth is that both can obliterate the other. This is true of most characters and it's why Shadowrun involves so much stealth, treachery and guile. He who fires first fires last (usually).

A character type is unbalanced against others, not if it could beat the other type in a fight, but if it can duplicate the other's role in the team more effectively, thus making the other type redundant. A mage can do impressive things, but can't match a samurai for consistency and sustained ability. Likewise, a Samurai is impressive but can't do some of the things that a mage can do.

My thoughts, anyway.

-K.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

[lorechaser]

[laughingowl]

[ornot]

Your second explanation made a lot more sense than the first one. Sorry.

I think I get it now. It's not such a major change as it seemed before, although explaining the maths is still a little confusing. As in, "add twice the net hits to the magic rating, but only if net hits are less than the difference between the declared force and the magic rating. Otherwise, just use the declared force and add hits once."

Fortunately I don't have a problem with players routinely having their characters "overcast and damn the consequences". They're all a little too afraid of dying.