No Honor Among Thieves Options

[fistandantilus4....]

I was thinking about some of our other games while looking over the notoriety thread, and wanted to share some of the more interesting moments of character back stabbing that's happened in our games. Feel free to share thoughts or any of your own.

The first one was part of my mafia based campaign in New Orleans. The team consisted of two made men (well, one was a woman) and three runners. The job was to get on to a freighter coming down the river. Part of the crew was smuggling in some Ares guns and dropping them off to one of the local krewes that wasn't giving the mob it's cut. They were to leave the ships crew alive, and take out the local smuggling krewe, using the guns they were supposed to be receiving.

The team went in, and took over the ship alright. They did eventually kill the entire crew (about a dozen IIRC) because they'd jumped one of the runners, a physad, and nearly killed her.Then they went on with the mission as planned, and took out the N.O. smuggling krewe with LMGs, then took off before the NOPS got there. THis is where things got interesting.

The physad had been knocked out, and healed back up to only 9 boxes of physical damage and 5 stun. She had to be hauled out of the room filled with the ship's crews bodies. The runner pulling her out didn't think to grab her weapon focus. Another of the runners changed into a seagull with the shapechange spell. He left behind his clothes, and his commlink that he specifically stated he had in his pockets. It had all the contact information for his contacts and the team on it.

This isn't a CLUE thing because of how the rest of the group played it out. The group split up as planned for a few hours to make sure no one was being tailed. The guy that left behind his commlink realized his mistake a while later when he tried to call the group. He headed back to the ship as a seagull again. But because there had been a lot of magic (that he had cast) around the boat, there were astral mages and elementals patrolling the area. One mage spotted him and recognized the signature, and sent an air elemental to capture him. It did.

They brought him in for questioning. Eventually he decided to cop a plea in exchange for a reduced sentence, he would turn the others in. The mob's connection in the police department found out and passed on the information. The team decided to take him out, and killed him with ritual sorcery. One of the runners was a vodoun and had made sure to pick up some of his hair when he had a chance earlier.

The second character, the phys ad, was sitting quiet in a hotel room when she got enough stim patches to think clearly, and realized what had happened. She called one of the mobsters on the team, and relayed her worries. The mobster character gave her directions to the hotel room she (the mafia character) was staying at. When she showed up, the mafioso gunned her down. No loose ends.

The second one took place at the end of the adventure Bottled Demon. Arleesh had sent the team up to take out Geyswain. One of the runners didn't want to go along, but the rest of the team talked him in to it. That and Arleesh had made it clear that she wouldn't be pleased if he didn't help. The character was a physad that liked swords and pistols.

They took the elevator up. When the rest of the team stepped out, he literally tabbed one of them in the back. Said stabbed character carried a cane sword, and they went at it for a round. Then the physad, knowing he was out numbered, fired on the others with his pistol (ambidextrous) and jumped back in to the elevator and took off. They let him go.

After the run, Arleesh told them to hunt him down. They finally found him months later. It turned into a battle at a multi fuel station between the physad and the guy he had stabbed. They went at it with swords, then guns, then a fireball. They both nearly died. They're still hunting each other.

So let me know what you think. In the first game , I made it clear at the beginning that this was not going to be the typical "all for one" type team . These guys were all criminals and knew it. The second incident just happened. Also really interested in any other cut throat games people have had.

[2bit]

niiiice.. moral of that first story: never fess up!!

[Deva]

This is a kind of game I have always dreamed to play at. And have tried many times to convice my players to try to play. Sadly, D&D is too much in their blood so they could never think of backstabbing each other. Those bastards...

I really envy you. I really do. :S

[Tiralee]

Heh - it's been a while posting.


I find the use of the word "honour" in Shadowrun somewhat unapplicable, unless it's said by some honour-bound character (Dragonslayer, etc) or as a curse.

Most players I've had, run with and managed to survive don't trust each other per se, but understand that if they're going to backstab someone, they'd better damn well make sure they finish the job with no witnesses and no evidence.

Sure, we have had some unstable characters pass through (the twin gunbunny brothers were the absolute worst for this, fun story, BTW) but every player knows that as the GM, I won't pass judgement, I'll play the consequences of their actions impartially.

-It makes the incoming karma sooo much sweeter when they know I've done nothing to facilitate it.


And even better - each player knows that their characters are good, even world-class at what they do, but they know ther's always the chance of them stuffing up, making a vital blunder, chosing the wrong moment and it's that hesitation that makes backstabbing and doublecrossing so much harder to pull off.




Of course, no one even wants to think of offing the resident mage - the sheer number of great-form elementals she has under control means she's behind voluntary meatshields during each run.


-Tir Out

[Eryk the Red]

Deva, it's odd that D&D is the game you think of as not being about backstabbing. In the "good" old days, the way things were done was the mage hopped in his portable hole when the combat started to let everyone else deal with the attack, the thief would sneak off to snag the treasure for himself, and at the end of the dungeon, the chaotic evil necromancer would fireball the rest of the part and make off with the riches.

D&D's not like that now? ;)

[deek]

[Deva]

Eryk, I think the number one reason for most of my gaming group not to play any backstabbing on our sessions is that most of them are so called power-gamers (as non of the Dumpshocker is, right?). "Roleplaying" for them is to play roleplaying games. Not to "being in the character" (which I believe many of the power-gamers do object). So that's why enjoing the game for them is to kill the monsters, not to act like what your character would do when they have another random encounter with horny werebear (yes, that's right boys 'n girls, pee your pants, run like hell and try not to think what it did last time when it found you in the bushes).

So, that's why in their opinion teamwork is a must to "win" the game. Nobody would want to play with a guy, who doesn't support the team/party. In our games the evil necromancer (concidering it as PC) would do the fireball and start cursing "F*** me! Mental note: Next time, leave the barbarian alive, so you don't have to carry the treasure by yourself", clean up the ashes in the pouch, carry the treasure and resurrect the whole party at the next village. And everybody would be happy, because they lived for another day...

They just think I'm the freak who wants to make and play characters which has it's own achiles heel. Also off-gaming threats, about what they're going to do if I don't play my character as it is writen in the book, are wide from kicking my ass to banning me from the campaing. That's usually the only way to make their characters to plot against my character, sadly for the metagaming reasons.

Yeah, I really, really, REALLY want to play a game when somebody (other than GM) kicks me mentally to nuts just to benefit for a few gold pieces (or :nuyen: more likely). Not like I always want to play the twisted little bastard, but for at least once.

All this D&D talk makes my D20 side effects worse. Better to find more of those lesbian-elf-babe injections Trigger in other thread recommended. ;)

[deek]

Well, regardless of the game system, you are going to run into that when you have powergamers and roleplayers. When I got in a campaign with my friends (D&D 3.5) about a year ago, I was a bit out of sorts because there was one powergamer and a couple min/maxers (which is a little different than a complete powergamer). And me...well, I really didn't care about stats or how much damage I could do...I picked a concept that I would have fun playing and rolled with it.

Seeing the GM was also a min/maxer, it took some time getting everyone to gel together but luckily, even though my character concept was not min/maxed, I did fill a role that no other character had, so it all kinda worked out.

Our second campaign, everyone took more of a roleplaying stance and even the powergamer pretty much downsized to a min/maxer, so to speak. And we are having just as much, if not as more fun.

Now I don't think you have to build in an achilles heel to a character. Any decent GM is going to find something that they can pit you against that will challenge you and take advantage of some of your weaknesses. With any group up to about 6 players, I'd think there will always be some kind of gap that a GM could work to his advantage, if need be.

The cool thing, getting back to SR, was that when I started running a campaign in SR, that all these same friends made characters and honestly, were not nearly as familiar with the rules, so while some started to min/max in some aspects, the beauty of SR4 (IMO), is that there is such a wealth of concepts to create and no classes, so everything is open.

And as a GM, you can throw such a variety of missions at a group, that to be a really solid runner, you can't really just specialize in one specific skill or attribute and be really successful. Those gun bunnies are pretty much neutralized if you give them a stealth mission, for example.

I guess my point (if I even started this reply with one) is that it sounds like you are the odd man out. But, I don't think that is because of a D&D mentality, it just sounds like the group you are with is more into the non-roleplaying aspect of these kinds of games.

[Deva]

Yeah, maybe I teeny-weeny bit overtrashed my group. They do love the adventure and like the broad base of playable characters in SR. And luckily I have kept my mouth shut about Dumpshock so they don't know how far their powergaming or min/maxing (it's all same to me - I'm not perfect either) abilities can go. :P

Just frustrated for them sometimes. Like I ask "You have three days between this and next run, what your character will do at that time?" and most of the players answers are "I clean my guns and wait for the next job". Sometimes skipping the days is okay, but everytime.. *sigh*

But this is totally out of topic, so let's just stop, nee?
(This is why I don't post, I just like to read. I have nothing to say, but I just can't stop when I start.)

[deek]

Heh...well, that's what training is for:) Honestly, I've only had one time when a player has gotten bored and did something other than train/rest during downtime. The reason was that he didn't have anything he wanted to train and everyone else was using a couple weeks to increase skills.

It ended up just taking more time and all for a lead to another job, which somewhat ended up backfiring. I'm all for playing out downtime, but from a GMs perspective, its a lot nicer when the whole group decides to work on the same stuff at the same time. Otherwise you have 3 guys training, rolling dice and asking questions, then have to split time with a single player that is running around...

Heh..yeah, back to topic...and to share a story.

Had a fairly simple run. One of the runners were to enter a prison complex as an inmate, make contact with a troll NPC runner that was being transferred to a prison controlled by Wuxing. Not good seeing that the job that landed him in prison was against Wuxing.

Contact is made and everything goes smoothly...a night or two later, the troll and the PC are on a transport travelling through the mountains. No communication with the other three members of his team, but he knows the plan is to stop the transport and help the troll make it back to town.

Meanwhile, the rest of the group has staked out a deserted location, found some roadkill and are currently debating whether stuffing one grenade in the carcass is enough to stop the bus/transport. With the PC on the bus being the "new guy" to the team, they decide to be safe (meaning, wanting to make sure bus is stopped) and load the carcass up with four grenades, as well as planting a couple others on the road side (the caster did some astral recon and found a couple motorcycles running escort for the transport).

The PC on the bus survived, but the explosion not only stopped the bus, it killed a couple guards, injured about everyone and put the PC into unconsciousness for the rest of the battle...

I guess that goes to show that being the new guy isn't a great place to be:)

[Moon-Hawk]

At least the other PCs showed up to rescue him. Even if it wasn't gentle.

[Nasrudith]

At least the new guy was a troll, otherwise they would have needed another new guy. :rotfl:

[Jaid]

[fistandantilus4....]

[deek]

[Anymage]

Deek, posts like that really make me wish I could dump you into the sort of cutthroat game you claim to want. I've been in many a game with selfish players and sociopathic characters, and being treated like a common NPC really wasn't fun. There's a reason PK'ing is looked down on by MMORPG'ers, and the same idea can apply when a game melts down into fragfests.

Rather, if you want to play a different style of game, it's probably best to accept from the start that you're playing with people who prefer a more band-of-brothers style, and either adapt your playstyle to match or look for a new group. (Or if you have the time, you can do both.) Acting as if D&D and mission/group centered parties are an inferior form of gaming won't get you far, though.

[Eryk the Red]

I think the real issue is that characters shouldn't always get along. People can be cutthroat. People can be selfish. Now take that knowledge into Shadowrun and apply it to shadowrunners. Very Bad People Who Shoot People Right in the Face for Money. I'm sure that most anyone here doesn't want his game to degrade into players lying and screwing each other over constantly until one character nukes the rest of the team. However, characters should have personal motivations and desires.

Just because a character is a player character, doesn't mean my character has to like him or care about his goals. And vice versa.

My campaign is not quite cutthroat, but has a good balance. Every character has personal goals and problems to deal with, which sometimes get shoved on the back burner by the team, and sometimes the character pursues the goals, team-be-damned. Characters have been lied to about the pay for runs and weaseled out of cash (only a couple times). Sometimes characters put their foot down about things and refuse to cooperate.

It's good. It's fun. If everyone is all super-buddies working together perfectly without conflict, it's a little boring. Not to mention hard to believe. Ordinary people struggle to get along like that. How about a bunch of mercenary sociopaths? (All shadowrunners are sociopaths on some level. Even a "nice" shadowrunner is someone who Shoots People Right in the Face for Money, or who willingly works with people who Shoot People Right in the Face for Money.)

[deek]

Yeah, I agree, its boring if everyone is getting along all the time. There's really not any cutthroating going on between the players in my game, but certainly different motivations and goals that just add a little spice into each session.

I mean, it all makes for a great story, but at the end of the day, the team is still a team and the players are still all friends, so it works out just fine!

[Leehouse]

There is a difference between cutt throat and not getting along. For instance in a DnD campaign a PC asked a favor of everyone in the group(was making an epic spell and needed extra XP to spend and wanted us to share) and we essentially said, "Uhhhh why? What do we gain out of this?" In the end she found a way to do it without us because she couldn't give us a good reason to do so

[Backgammon]

I think the big differance is Player backstabbing versus Character backstabbing. The problem begins when a player says "Jim's character shot mine in the back, so I'm gonna get Jim back by hurting his character too". If the conflict is all RP, like fistan's, then it's fun. But as any good player is emotionnaly invested in his character, it's hard not to take it personnal when another player backstabs you. Then a cycle of subtle revenges and distrust begins, not because of the character's personality, but because "everyone knows Jim thinks it's funny to backstab our characters".

[deek]

That's a very good point...there's a big difference when players decide to react based on out of game actions...

[Kyoto Kid]

...I know all to well from experience.

As a GM it is also frustrating when Player uses personal knowledge his or her character doesn't have.

[fistandantilus4....]

The great thing about the backstabbing in our game is that it's all IC. OOC, all the players are having a great time. And none of it (so far at least) has just been for pure selfish game. It's all been covering loose ends at killing snitches.

Not all the PCs get along great, but they do work together very well. We do a lot of note passing to avoid metagaming.

[hyzmarca]

[Glyph]